October 26, 2005
Air Force Academy looking into racially toned remarks by Fisher DeBerry
The Air Force Academy is looking into comments made this week by Head Coach Fisher DeBerry about how the school needs to recruit more black athletes.
Judge for yourself whether you deem the remarks 'racially insensitive', as the AFA is no doubt trying to ascertain themselves.
"I just want to recruit speed; we need to find speed as much as anything," DeBerry, 67, said when asked if he believed there was anything wrong in saying he wanted to recruit more black athletes because they are faster."The black athlete, statistically, from program to program, seems to have an edge as far as speed is concerned."
. . ."It was very obvious to me the other day that the other team (TCU) had a lot more African-American players than we did and they ran a lot faster than we did," DeBerry said Tuesday. "It just seems to be that way. African-American kids can run very well. That doesn't mean that Caucasian kids and other descents can't run, but it's very obvious to me that they run extremely well.
"Their (TCU's) defense had 11 African-American kids on their team and they were a very good defensive football team. So that's exactly what I was talking about
Comments:
posted on October 26, 2005 9:16 AM — 66.186.235.209 — link — abuse?dave frey said:
*IF* his statement about statistics and the speed of black athletes is a true one (and I don't know if it is or not, I haven't done the research), then I see nothing wrong with what he said. If black athletes are faster, and his team has a speed deficit, then the logical thing to do is recruit more black athletes. There's nothing racist about that.
Col. Reb said:
posted on October 26, 2005 10:02 AM — 68.23.192.206 — link — abuse?
This is another example of things getting blown way out of proportion. If it is a statistic, then its a statistic. Every team chases the black athlete. If they didn't, then they would be called racist. You can't make anybody happy.
Jeremy Collins said:
posted on October 26, 2005 12:05 PM — 167.239.198.195 — link — abuse?
If you recruit black athletes because or their speed you are racist
If you don't recruit black athletes becasue of their speed you are racisr
Where do we draw the line on racism is this racism against African-Americans saying that they are not like everyone else, or is this a racist comment to the other races saying that the African-Americans are better?
This sucks, there is no way around it, the KKK and the black panthers and any other organization that has hate surrounding them has made this great country so DAMN touchy that people have a hard time looking into the mirror this day and age wondering who out their hates them. There is no right or wrong comments just stupid people who take words as if someone was pulling the trigger in their face.
Sorry for the rant, I just want to live in a world where we can all get together no matter of race and enjoy the greatest thing in this country,
FOOTBALL.Jeremy "mudslide" Collins
Caucasion Logan, West Virgina
posted on October 26, 2005 1:11 PM — 66.186.235.209 — link — abuse?
The interesting thing here is that IF you subscribe to the argument "if black athletes are statistically proven to be faster, so if you need speed, you should recruit more black athletes"
Then you're making an admission that will drive some people right through the roof: Members of certain races are generally (not universally) better at certain things than people of other races.
There are some people who absolutely cannot even CONSIDER such a possibility. Their ideology holds, as one of its most basic premises, that everyone is, MUST be, 100% equal in every respect. Take that away, and their fantastical utopian worldview collapses. Or, put more simply, they would have to acknowledge that if black folks are better at some things, then white folks might also be better at some things, and that's just not acceptable.
posted on October 26, 2005 2:59 PM — 156.56.74.172 — link — abuse?
"If you don't recruit black athletes becasue of their speed you are racisr"
Not really. If you don't recruit fast black kids because of their race you're racist. There are a lot of reasons not to recruit any player in spite of amazing speed. Poor strength, poor hands, poor work ethic, academic ineptness, problems with authority, etc.
Dave: that's a good point, of course there's no questioning that certain things are statistically true... the question is whether factors inherent in race are the cause of those differences...Ralph Wicklund said:
posted on October 26, 2005 4:19 PM — 131.122.81.94 — link — abuse?
It is amusing to me that these comments were not blurted back in the day when Fisher and his Falcons were kicking butt. He is a professional at one of our National Universities. There cannot be a hint of Racial and/or Religious bias. The beancounter mentality that anything and everything is justified by the bottom line has crept into our Institutions. Winning has overcome DeBerry's core values. This conflict and his righteous religious viewpoint are responsible for the inappropriate comments he made. I am not arguing the truth of his statements, only their advocation.
zippy said:
posted on October 26, 2005 4:48 PM — 172.152.253.63 — link — abuse?
OH MY GAWD!!! ARE you guys playing around with me?? In the words of John McConroe,"You can not be serious". As i shake my head reading the article and comments that follow on the board. Those comments aren't racist. Your right, there just ignorant!!! Because the opposing team has black athletes that whoop his butt doesn't equate to a deficiency of talent. Statistically speaking, maybe this guy isn't a good coach who isn't effective. Statistically speaking, maybe he is more stupid than the opposing coaches he plays by I.Q. points. The fact of the matter is the coach sucks and he shouldn't hide behind race to explain it.
zippy said:
posted on October 26, 2005 4:56 PM — 172.152.253.63 — link — abuse?
Ok dave well according to your hypothesis, I will open a business and only hire Jews to run it because statistically there more wealthy. Therefore i want them to handle the money. I will hire only asians to handle my research, because statistically they score high on standerized tests. They seem to kick butt when it comes to engineering and research. Then i'm gonna only hire latinos, to work in manufacturing, because statistically they will work for next to nothing. I wil then hire only blacks to work as security because statistically there good at being intimidating and aggressive. Do see how stupid it is to hide behind statistics and pretend people aren't equal.
portis said:
posted on October 26, 2005 8:12 PM — 24.3.40.245 — link — abuse?
There are too many people out looking for something to bitch and complain about. Everything he said was true, everybody knows this, yet there is still a big issue made of it. Maybe racially charged issues would go away if we didn't have organizations like the ACLU searching through headlines to find stuff to complain about. Leave him alone and let Air Force play football!!!
Phil said:
posted on October 26, 2005 11:47 PM — 71.49.184.65 — link — abuse?
So they want to publicize his non-derogatory comment and blow it out of proportion.......then what is being done about the recent speaker at a Howard University meeting when he stated that "we need to get rid of all of the whites". Maybe the Air Force Academy should stand behind their man and tell everybody else to kiss their ***!
Janine Moriarty said:
posted on October 27, 2005 12:29 AM — 64.12.116.139 — link — abuse?
You did nothing and said nothing wrong Coach DeBerry!! It is a shame that we cannot say what we feel in America. You were just exercising your freedom of speech. And you also used the "politically correct" term of African-American unlike other unkind terms that others have used. Don't worry, most intelligent people such as I understood what you meant and didn't take offense to it. By the way, AOL took a vote on what people thought about your unfortunate experience and 70% of the votes were in your favor and felt you said nothing wrong. Keep your chin up and God Bless!! And that is another thing, I would NEVER take God or prayer out of anything whatsoever. If it meant to lose my job over it, so be it. God came before anything and if you are a Christian you must stand up for God!!
zippy said:
posted on October 27, 2005 2:28 AM — 172.152.253.63 — link — abuse?
Man whats worse than a stereotypical racist coach?? A stereotypical racist coach who also doubles as a Jesus Freak!! Gawd!!!! I'm submerged in this fluid of putridge existence.
This clown is wrong otherwise i just wouldn't have witnessed him apologize on tv with his head parellel with the podium. Anybody that supports this dude is a nazi. You just don't want to give credit to black athletes for hardwork and determination.
posted on October 27, 2005 3:30 AM — 69.2.33.129 — link — abuse?
zippy said: Your right, there just ignorant!!!
Oh dear God, the IRONY!!!
Aside from your comically poor grasp of the language, you appear to suffer from the delusion that anyone who cites a statistic must be wrong.
But to answer your question, NO, I DON'T see how stupid it is to hide behind statistics and pretend people aren't equal.
First, no one is "hiding" behind statistics. Someone cited statistics. It's a very common and generally accepted practice, used to back up assertions in fields ranging from science to law. You should look into it.
Second, no one is "pretending" that people aren't equal. People are acknowledging that people aren't equal in every respect. It's the people that think people are equal who are doing the pretending. You see, you've made the mistake of transferring the notion of equal worth in society and equal standing under the law into the realm of characteristics. While all people of all races are, or at least should be, equal in terms of their rights and standing in a society, there's no reason in the world to think they're all equal in physical ability, nor is it wrong or racist to suggest they might not be. WHO CARES if Africans are better at one thing, and Asians are better at another, and Caucasians are better at something else? It DOESN'T MATTER. We should celebrate diversity and the different things that different races of people bring to the table.
Like it or not, deny it or not, the facts are clear: black athletes, in general, are faster than white ones. Therefore, if you need more speed on your team, getting some more black players is something you should probably look into.
Eldergriffon said:
posted on October 27, 2005 10:16 AM — 67.188.161.239 — link — abuse?
I'm shaking my head, too, but for a different reason than everyone else, apparently. I agree that DeBerry may be citing perfectly defensible facts that shouldn't be considered racist just because they mention race. But, while not racist, they are definitely racially insensitive. Why? Because DeBerry doesn't say that because of the need for speed he must recruit faster players, he says he must recruit black players. When you focus on race as the key factor in determining a qualification, you make people wonder why you are so caught up with race, and aren't simply looking at the attribute in question. As a leader and a public figure, DeBerry should have figured out a long time ago that racial generalizations make people feel threatened and insecure. Does he see me or my race? If I were DeBerry's boss, I'd be burying my face in my hands. This is not to say that DeBerry's comments may not reflect certain practical realities. But all leaders know that on certain subjects it is absolutely crucial to avoid misunderstandings, especially those made more likely by people's common sensitivities. DeBerry gets a "D-" on his public presentation skills.
posted on October 27, 2005 5:15 PM — 69.2.33.129 — link — abuse?
they are definitely racially insensitive. Why? Because DeBerry doesn't say that because of the need for speed he must recruit faster players, he says he must recruit black players. When you focus on race as the key factor in determining a qualification, you make people wonder why you are so caught up with race, and aren't simply looking at the attribute in question.
He doesn't make people wonder why he is caught up with race, he TELLS them why he's included race in his reasoning. There's no need for him to limit his reasoning by focusing on the attribute alone.
Sure, he could've just said "I'm going to get some faster players". But he's chosen to provide additional information on just how he plans to accomplish that. It's really a pretty elementary logical construction:
*I need faster players on my team in order to be competitive.
*Black players are, statistically speaking, faster than white players.
*I will therefore seek to add more black players to my team.I think you should give people credit for being intelligent enough to understand a basic logical proposition without inferring racist undertones. The only people who see racism here are the people who spend all their time trying to find racism in everything.
Janine Moriarty said:
posted on October 27, 2005 6:59 PM — 152.163.100.139 — link — abuse?
Zippy,
Your ignorance is amazing but even worse, your spelling. Gawd??!! It is God! Calling us "Jesus freaks". Well yes I am. I would much rather be a Jesus freak than a Satan freak as you sound. The only clown on here is you but "God" loves you anyway. And another thing, I don't remember white people throwing a fit about the movie "White Men Can't Jump." I hear nasty comments about white people around me everyday but I just shrug it off because I am secure enough in myself to know who I am so racist remarks do not bother me. Black people make jokes about white people everyday but you don't hear of white people calling for their resignation over such silly nonsense. When people get past the skin color, we will finally have peace among all races.
Eldergriffon said:
posted on October 28, 2005 3:28 AM — 67.188.161.239 — link — abuse?
*I need faster players on my team in order to be competitive.
*Black players are, statistically speaking, faster than white players.
*I will therefore seek to add more black players to my team.I think you should give people credit for being intelligent enough to understand a basic logical proposition without inferring racist undertones.
This logic, as stated, has a clear flaw. It is an example of using the group to make inferences about the individual, and such inferences are often wrong. Recruiting from a group which has, on average, faster players doesn't guarantee that you get any faster players. It only makes it more probable. For that reason, it would be a fine and useful strategy, if you couldn't figure out how fast players were other than by noting their race. But since a player's speed is a matter of record, seeking out black players brings you not a whit closer to finding faster players than is otherwise possible. You find fast ones by merely looking for-- fast ones. The question then becomes, why bring up race at all?
Using race as a tool in the benign activity of identifying faster players is a red herring. It makes neither practical nor logical sense, and I doubt anyone seriously believes that DeBerry does this. I wish to stress, as I did above, that DeBerry's comments are not at all racist in my view. They are, so far as anyone is able to say, perfectly reasonable in ascribing marked athletic talent to black athletes. But putting race at the center of recruiting is neither credible as a strategy nor suggestive of an approach based on rewarding merit and talent.
As a matter of fact, I think DeBerry meant something quite different. I think he meant to say that if he were to recruit more speed, than he would of necessity have to recruit more black athletes. In such a case, it would be necessary to take steps to make black athletes feel more welcome at Air Force, and to promote the Academy as a place proud of its black athletes. This, in contrast, makes perfect sense, and provides a rationale for bringing up the subject of race. It differs from the preceding in that it stresses getting better at recruiting fast athletes who happen to be black, rather than recruiting black athletes because they're fast (which may not actually be at all true in specific cases).
Yes, yes, I can already hear the objection. No one can fully defend himself from critics intent on splitting hairs, so we should be charitable to DeBerry and not look for despicable meanings where none were intended. But I happen to think that he could easily have expressed himself clearly on this subject, and should be criticized for going off in directions that make people wonder why he's making such an issue of race.
zippy said:
posted on October 28, 2005 10:53 PM — 172.174.173.228 — link — abuse?
Hhahaahhahaha!!! I'm not a whiner. I'm just smart enough to know when someone is trying to hoodwink me. I've played sports with people of various backgrounds. I've played with white guys who could jump out the gym and black guys who couldn't hop over a penny. Deberry and his silly statistics are inflammatory comments aimed at deflecting attention from the guys coaching skills.
Its got nothing to do with PC, but giving those kids credit for working hard in the weight room and perfecting there crafts. His comments do nothing but rob those kids the credit they deserve!!!P.S.--- Janine, religous nutso's are another topic. But this is fansblog, not Jesusfreaks.com!!
green gene said:
posted on October 28, 2005 11:59 PM — 70.149.213.57 — link — abuse?
I could understand how a comment about black football players being very, very stupid would be racially insensitive (as well as being blatantly untrue). But very, very fast? I don't get it. It sounded like a compliment to me. Is it now insensitive to compliment people? HOW can it be considered insensitive to say something complimentary about a group of people?
posted on October 29, 2005 8:02 AM — link — abuse?
At a minimum, DeBerry is guilty of stereotyping - a massive generalization that cannot be true. It's true that the characteristics that people assign to stereotypes are not always negative, but by the very definition, stereotypes are not true.
DeBerry's remarks carry a larger implication - that it might be OK to characterize a large group of people ("they" are fast, "they" are smart, "they" are money-hungry, "they" are lazy, etc). Totally **NOT** OK, and certainly not acceptable from a federally funded school.
To say you want to recruit a "black" player is 'racist' to a lot of different groups, because it says that you're priority is race - not intelligence, ability, etc. Is that what DeBerry meant? Probably not, but what he said could be taken either way.
DeBerry's words may not fully reflect his personal feelings, but that could cut both ways, too. I think that's why you're seeing people "make a big deal" out of it.
posted on October 29, 2005 9:29 AM — 69.2.33.129 — link — abuse?
"At a minimum, DeBerry is guilty of stereotyping - a massive generalization that cannot be true."
Really? Statistics would indicate that DeBerry's "massive generalisation" is, in fact, true. And even if he didn't have the statistics to back it up, why COULDN'T it be true? Why CAN'T it be true that some races are stronger in certain attributes than others? Aside form the delusional utopian worldview that everyone MUST be equal in every regard, I've never seen any persuasive evidence for this.
"DeBerry's remarks carry a larger implication - that it might be OK to characterize a large group of people ("they" are fast, "they" are smart, "they" are money-hungry, "they" are lazy, etc). Totally **NOT** OK, and certainly not acceptable from a federally funded school."
Um, why would it NOT be ok if what he is saying is TRUE and can be supported by reliable statistical data? Is it now NOT OK to speak the truth at our institutions of higher learning?
"To say you want to recruit a "black" player is 'racist' to a lot of different groups, because it says that you're priority is race - not intelligence, ability, etc."
Yes, and therein lies the hypocrisy of the "different groups" you mention. The same groups screaming that DeBerry is a racist for saying he wants to recruit black players are the ones that support programs encouraging, even MANDATING, that people should be hired, admitted, or otherwise shown preferential treatment BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK. It would be perfectly ok for some black "activist" to say "Coach DeBerry needs to recruit more black players. Statistics show that black athletes are faster and that would help his team!" Yet if a white man says the exact same thing, he's a racist.
posted on October 29, 2005 11:23 AM — link — abuse?
The very nature of a stereotype prevents it from ever being "true". It's a generalization - you can't apply it to every member of a group.
Look at other common stereotypes and then look that the exceptions: Gay men that can't dress well. Asian-Americans that are bad at math. And on and on. African-Americans that hate rap.
By their very nature, stereotypes assign our (society's) bias to groups.
Let's use DeBerry's quote as an example ("African-American kids can run very well"). Now, who's the more gifted runner: LSU lineman Terrell McGill or former Colorado WR Jeremy Bloom?
If DeBerry had only been interested in getting faster players, he should have said just that. There was no need to inject race into the converstation at all. By making it about race, DeBerry stopped making football comments and starting making racial comments. And it doesn't take much at all for a racial comment to be heard by someone as a racist comment.
None of us can say if he intended his comment to be racist. I personally doubt it. That said, DeBerry's comment *was* racial and only served to perpetuate a stereotype - that's that problem.
posted on October 29, 2005 11:43 AM — 69.2.33.129 — link — abuse?
"The very nature of a stereotype prevents it from ever being "true". Not sure I buy that. Can you elaborate?
"It's a generalization - you can't apply it to every member of a group."
I think you have mislabeled his remark as a stereotype. He never said "every member" of the black race was faster; he said statistics show that in general black athletes are faster. That is a true statement.
Even if, as you suggest, stereotypes can't be true, generalisations most certainly CAN be true. They're not ALWAYS true, to be sure, but they can be, and in this case, DeBerry cites statistical data to buttress his claim. (huhuhuhuh....I said buttress...huhuhuh)
"Look at other common stereotypes and then look that the exceptions: Gay men that can't dress well. Asian-Americans that are bad at math. And on and on. African-Americans that hate rap."
Yes, but again, he never suggested it was universally true. He said it was statistically true. Additionally, the fact that stereotypes aren't universally true does NOT mean that the underlying generalisations aren't rooted in some degree of truth. To use the examples you listed, in general, gay men DO dress very well; in general, Asian-American students ARE very good at math; in general, rappers are African American and many African Americans listen to rap.
"If DeBerry had only been interested in getting faster players, he should have said just that."
Why? Why not state that he was going to use an approach that would be statistically more likely to get him the faster players he needs? Sounds perfectly logical and rational to me, and not the least bit racist.
posted on October 29, 2005 11:56 AM — link — abuse?
It was a lapse of judgement for him to say it with all of the other scandals and controversy at the Academy (including the one he was the focus us.) I'm not arguing the issue or the semantics of stereotyping, just pointing out it was a bad move for him. Then again, people like Zippy trashing DeBerry don't know him too well either.
Eldergriffon said:
posted on October 29, 2005 9:03 PM — 67.188.161.239 — link — abuse?
The difficulty with DeBerry's remarks is a combination of two things: imprecision, and the sensitivity of race as a subject. What he suggested that isn't at all true is that focusing on race is a good way to recruit. When you know how fast players are, focusing on their race does not help you identify whom you should recruit.
However, that's just being imprecise. The real problem is that he was being imprecise about race. All public figures must know that if they mention race, they have to do it carefully and with a clear purpose. Calling attention to race has been an excuse for injustice in other times and places, and hearing remarks about race makes people nervous.
Sometimes, people are forced to apologize for remarks that no one should really find objectionable, simply because they've unaccountably caused a public stir. This is not one of those times. DeBerry brought race into a subject where it doesn't clearly have a place, while speaking in his role as head coach at Air Force. It's a serious mistake, and the Academy administration was right to make him clarify that he meant no offense.
Janine Moriarty said:
posted on October 30, 2005 9:54 PM — 152.163.100.139 — link — abuse?
Seems as if "Zippy" is more unpopular on this blog than DeBerry. Is it any wonder with his type of comments. Don't worry Zippy, there is a place for you where everyone will love you. Hope you like "hot weather". Smile! The "Jesus Freak" and PROUD of it!!
Steve Ceh said:
posted on November 3, 2005 10:32 PM — 207.200.116.133 — link — abuse?
Coach Deberry,
I guess you can't be honest in our liberal tainted media. I think you did nothing wrong but one thing, you apologized. I know the organization urged you, but you then give the impression that you were wrong. I also heard on the "news" that you were forced to take down a banner because you are a Christian. I say get another one that will cover the entire wall that says you're a Christian. If we were honest about the media they would all be out of a jobBPSpeaks said:
posted on November 5, 2005 10:25 AM — 137.241.250.100 — link — abuse?
I think everyone understands what Mr. Deberry meant with his comments. Problem is, he didn't say what he meant. If speed is what he is looking for, he should recruit speed. That too, is what he should have said. Linking speed to race, as though the two are inherently associated, is plain, well..DUMB. Anybody who thinks otherwise is being,..well, to put it plainly, "dumb as he**". I should know! I happen to be black, and incidentaly, slow as hell. My reality proves the fallacy of logic applied by Deberry and all those who support his statement. Should he be run out of town for statements that in no way reflect anything negative ablout black athletes? Obviously not. As a matter of fact, if anybody should be offended, it should be those really fast white guys that would smoke me and other blacks like myself who would, using Deberrys evaluation criteria, end up playing at the AF Academy over them. In terms of things being blown out of proportion, I don't know why the overwhelmingly White run, owned and operated media tends to do that. It's really a shame!
BPSpeaks said:
posted on November 5, 2005 10:43 AM — 137.241.250.100 — link — abuse?
"Black people make jokes about white people everyday but you don't hear of white people calling for their resignation over such silly nonsense"
"The same groups screaming that DeBerry is a racist for saying he wants to recruit black players are the ones that support programs encouraging, even MANDATING, that people should be hired, admitted, or otherwise shown preferential treatment BECAUSE THEY'RE BLACK."
Why all the venom in this post aimed at Black people. I haven't seen nor heard any black folk talking about this issue one way or other - certainly no one demanding a resignation - only white or other non-black media types. Somebody please tell me where the so-called activist are that are making a big deal out of this because to me, they have been completely MIA."Gosh guys..frickin fiddle farts! Those negro's stirrin up trouble again..."
KING RICHARD said:
posted on November 6, 2005 7:22 AM — 66.168.86.169 — link — abuse?
I TOTALLY agree that the stereotyping is wrong. Shucks, anybody with a brain knows that the NBA, NFL, and Olympic sprint rosters are dominated by whites!! DeBerry should be fired for his obvious ignorance of this fact. If he needs more speed, he should do what the other top schools do...recruit more whites. Still, I will assure Coach DeBerry that, despite what some of the media and posters on this board may think, none of the Euro-Americans whom I know were even remotely offended by his implications that they are in any way athletically inferior to African-Americans. However, I do recognize that his remarks have embarrassed African-Americans by suggesting that a large number of them are inherently faster than their Euro-American counterparts...I assure them that they should not feel guilty for such ridiculous assertions, which can easily be disproved by any quick examination of starting rosters of the top 25 teams in the skilled positions requiring speed. There...now everyone should be happy!
Fitz Glasgow said:
posted on November 6, 2005 5:45 PM — 66.182.235.89 — link — abuse?
Come on muggs! Isn't it time we stopped trying to "create" controversy? If any one of us were watching the Boston Marathon and were to coment, "Those Kenyans are fast!", would we not be making an observation? Enough already!!!!
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Jeremy Collins said:
posted on October 26, 2005 8:48 AM — 167.239.198.195 — link — abuse?I agree with him there is nothing wrong with this statement. Why do we blow everything out of the water every time someone speaks their mind?
This is a ridiculous story.