March 13, 2008
Which BCS coaches have longest BCS drought?
Once again, the noble and esteemed paulwesterdawg from Georgia Sports Blog has assembled the 2008 list of BCS conference college football coaches with the longest BCS game droughts.
So who is the longest tenured head coach without a BCS game appearance? Clemson's Tommy Bowden.
Bowden became the head coach of the Tigers for the 1999 season, but has never taken a team to a BCS bowl. Bowden replaces last year's drought leader Houston Nutt, who fell back off the list because he left Arkansas and is now working on a new drought run at Ole Miss.
One of the more interesting insights you can take from the list is the impact that a BCS appearance (or lack thereof) can have on a coach's tenure. Of the 65 BCS teams, Bowden's tenth season leads the list. A couple years down the ladder are a gaggle of coaches with six to eight years of tenure. But the top ten wraps with coaches that are just into their fourth season.
That would seem to indicate that the average tolerance for a BCS drought is about six to seven seasons. After that, it's coaching search time.
Bowden has proven that he is the exception to the norm, but it will be interesting to see how many more years the Clemson faithful will wait for a BCS game appearance.
The rest of the 2008 list is online here. For reference, the 2007 list is also online at Georgia Sports Blog.
Comments:
nol3man4 said:
posted on March 13, 2008 1:33 PM — 69.85.254.2 — link — abuse?
"Although I don't think this thread has the right topic to make for really good blogs"..
Good Lord man, I wish people would just quit your b1tchin'. Go find another blog if you don't like this one, I'd get sick of people's BS if I were KD as well.
40 Acres of Burnt Orange
posted on March 13, 2008 4:25 PM — 192.94.94.105 — link — abuse?
said:
Tommy Bowden needs to step it on up. After 10 years and pretty good recruiting classes, and a pretty weak overall ACC, Clemson should have already been in a couple of BCS bowl games. Mike Leach should have a really good shot this year to break through and contend for the Big 12 title. Gary Pinkel got straight up robbed of a BCS bowl berth last year. Rutgers had their shot and blew it, but being in the Big East and especially with WVU going through a coaching change the Big East will definately be up for grabs this year. Vandy, Miss St, and Arizona would have to pull a Kansas (weak non conference schedule, and not have to play the conference powers) to even sniff a BCS bowl bid. Cal, well us Burnt Orange Fans do appreciate their sacrifice of a Rose Bowl berth to us so that they could go and get demolished by the Red Raiders!
HookEmHorns!
posted on March 13, 2008 5:05 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?War Eagle Atlanta
said:
Oh, it could be worse, Clempzin fans. You could be stuck with one of the other dozen or so coaching Bowdens...
I think that if a coach transfers from one BCS school to another, then his drought record shouldn't reset, it should follow him.
Zac said:
posted on March 13, 2008 9:11 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Maybe I misunderstood this thread. Are we talking BCS drought as in trips (lack there-of) to BCS bowls, as opposed to any bowl? I'm not sure. While you're pondering that, does "tenured" in this case still refer to currently active HC's, or are we discussing any HC?
What I do know is this: Former WVU HC, Don Nehlan, though he went out a winner, sadly has the distinction of having lost 8 straight bowl games. ND (Where's IrisJT when you need him?) has the distinction of having the most consecutive bowl losses at 9, but that spans 3 HC's.
If we're talking strictly BCS, the Bowdens do come to mind, but when was the last time Steve Kragthorpe brought a team to a BCS bowl?
(WarEagleA, to steal a phrase from Tomcat, that Clempzin thing is "purty funny".)
1st_and_NOLE
posted on March 13, 2008 10:49 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
The Clemson faithful are putting all their eggs in the 2008 basket as fans.
If Tommy Bowden doesn't win the ACC in 2008... he's going to get fired. It's that simple.
There's no more excuses. It's time to put up or shut up for Tommy Bowden.
Zac said:
posted on March 13, 2008 11:37 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
1st & Nole, much as I hate to say it, I think you're right. MI & Lloyd Carr is a perfect example of similar stupidity. But, if fans think a program has gone stagnant and isn't making it to the next level, that is what they'll call for.
It's a shame, really. In the past 6 seasons Clemson is 47-28 with 3 bowl wins, one of em against TN. They have lost their last 2 bowls, neither a BCS bowl, however, by only a combined 11 points.
Still, look at FSU's record over 6 years: 50-28. How many BCS bowls in that period? How many won? Are the fans calling for Bobby's head at FSU like their calling for Tommy's head at Clemson? How about JoPa? His 6 year record (45-29) is worse than Tommy B's; though, he does have a BCS win in that time frame. How about Weiss? He hasn't won a bowl, BCS or otherwise, and is responsible for ND's worst season ever. Even IrishJT didn't call for his head. I don't get it is all.
Tomcat said:
posted on March 14, 2008 1:10 AM — 68.94.172.238 — link — abuse?
#8 Zac interesting anaylogy, when you mentioned Carr, it got to to thinking, looking at certain teams and rivalries in particular.Am I the only one, or does it seem like some teams have another teams number or something.Thats really not the case with the Clemson vs S Carolina rivalry, but it is with others.Thus preventing them in some cases from advancement to a {BCS}bowl.
Examples
Auburn vs Bama
Ohio St vs Mich
UGA vs G Tech
Fla vs FSU
TTech vs T A&M
There are many other examples I could include
K State vs Texas hardly a rivalry and two straight aint the same as 3,4 or 5 straight.
Some teams as AUtigerfan08 commented on like Baylor,Vandy & Duke are smaller private institutions that are in BCS conferences given their perspective schedules against recognized powerhouses their goals are obviously different than some others and their coaches are doing an outstanding job just to feild a competitive team, much less contend for a {BCS} bowl.
Wake Forest is the exception among others.
Looking at this list
Mike Leach Texas Tech
They knocked off OU & A&M two big dogs, but unfortunantly lost to OK st & UT.For a team in the XII to make it to a BCS bowl they almost have to go undefeated in their division,probable, but highly unlikely. Like 2007 4 teams in the top ten- only two advance Missu Tigers 11-2 Gary Pinkle no-BCS Bowl outstanding season
I'll take Bowden,Leach,Pinkle,Nutt even Guy Morris before I'd take Weiss even though he's been to a BCS bowl
Adios TomcatSpartacus
posted on March 14, 2008 2:06 AM — 69.238.53.166 — link — abuse? said:
The BCS is all about popularity and money. I've rated teams for many years and Clemson is traditionally around a Top 15 team. They can be very explosive and can definately win you some money against the line. They have historically lost some late season games against good teams that have bumped them down. There have been many teams that have made it into BCS games that did not belong there. Clemson is just not a trendy pick. I like the team myself. I like the way that they pound the rock. They rarely get "blown out" and usually play a pretty good game. My overall opinion is that Clemson is normally underrated. It's very tough to get through the ACC without a couple of losses or even three. But, sadly, most folks just don't understand that losing doesn't mean much anymore.
Here, we just had an undefeated Hawaii team (that was grossly overrated), completely demolished by Georgia. Meanwhile, Clemson would never get mauled like that even if they had only an 8-4 or even a 7-5 record. It's just been the way the cookie crumbles. Normally, one team from a conference is gonna get a BCS invite. A conference is "lucky" to get two. Many very good one loss teams have not gone. With Virginia Tech lately, Florida State in the past, and other good ACC teams dominating this conference - it's not too surprising that Clemson has been left out. They have always been a "Top 3" ACC team. The ACC has not been granted two teams very often and has a poor BCS record to boot. The ACC is probably the most competitive conference top to bottom - year in and year out. Sometimes there are ten good teams in that conference. This has made it tough for Clemson to get out with only one loss. And, it takes one or two losses, normally, to get into a BCS game (sans the great Florida State upset of Virginia Tech in 2005). So, my opinion is that this is a very meaningless stat where Clemson is concerned. I'll put Clemson in my Top 15-20 teams during any year. That is a good program.Tommie Trojan
U. of S. C. 1978 said:
posted on March 14, 2008 8:57 AM — 97.82.188.250 — link — abuse?
Post 7. Sorry Nole, you got it all wrong. Moo U fans had that ole boys hide nailed to shed wall before the season started, A shakey start intensified their howls of B'jr. is just so STUPID! A little success dulled the hate filled recriminations, It is back however, Moo U. fans are tired of the lackluster. In typical SC reaction, they will tar and feather JR. and search for someone else they can throw more money at, thereby setting up some other poor sucker they can emasculate.
posted on March 14, 2008 9:11 AM — link — abuse? said:
@Zac - We're talking coaches at BCS schools, who have not appeared recently in a BCS bowl. Kragthorpe (specifically) has exactly 1 year at a BCS school, right? That doesn't yet qualify as a drought.
@Spartacus - I will agree that a BCS game appearance is not the measure of a program, to some extent. I think if you were to ask the Clemson fans if they expect their team to go to BCS games... the answer would be yes.
posted on March 14, 2008 12:05 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Good point, 1st and Nole: If Clemson fails to win the ACC this year, it's off with Tommy's head.
And they'd be a year too late to get Paul Johnson, who would have made a good fit there...Zac: Clempzin fans will teach you how to say it properly. They emphasize the 'p' and the 'z' in the pronunciation...
RazzMaTazz said:
posted on March 14, 2008 1:51 PM — 70.137.157.194 — link — abuse?
As a Clemson grad/fan, I'm completely disgusted that the university has supported Tommy Bowden this long. Except for Tommy's second year at Clemson when he went 6-2 in ACC play, Clemson has consistently gone 4-4 or 5-3 in ACC play, with no upward trajectory. And contrary to Spartacus's assertion, if you look at Clemson's ACC standing (including tie-breaker criteria) Clemson has averaged finishing around 5th in the expanded ACC. (i.e. Upper middle of the pack.)
Bowden is a Southern evangelical Christian who is outspoken and demonstrative in his religious beliefs. I respect that greatly about him. But it garners him an extraordinary (arguably unreasonable) amount of support from numerous fans and administrators who care more about his religious beliefs than his on-field performance. I dare say that if TB weren't an outspoken Christian, he would have been fired long ago. I'm a Christian first and foremost myself, but I don't believe in religious discrimination so if Bowden doesn't win the ACC this year, I'd really like to see Clemson hire a championship-caliber coach (whose a decent person) and maybe keep Bowden on board as the team chaplain or something.
On the other hand Bowden's crew has done a pretty good job of recruiting over the last few years. And I think part of the reason for that is because he's able to get talented kids (who wouldn't otherwise choose Clemson but) whose parents feel good about sending their kid away to school with a good Christian guy like Bowden. I think that also translates into a talented set of relatively trouble-free players-- which gives many Clemson fans great hope. However, over recent years, Clemson has out-recruited the teams that have kept Clemson from winning the ACC (VT, BC, & Wake). And for example, last year, Clemson tied for #7 in the nation for number of players drafted in the NFL, yet Clemson finished unranked with that (2006) team. So it does seem pretty clear to many of us that Tommy Bowden underperforms his player talent.
Clemson's defense has been pretty good (arguably good enough to win the ACC) over the last several years. But many of us think that the play calling from Clemson's OC, Rob Spence has been inadequate. (Spence racks up huge points/yardage against cupcakes so his averages are great, but can't consistently score qdequately against the good teams.) Unfortunately, TB and Rob Spence are best buddies so TB refuses to fire the OC (unlike Tuberville at Auburn). That's on Bowden.
Clemson will likely be favored to win the ACC (despite having to reload at linebacker and O-line). With VT off of Clemson's schedule this year (and with VT reloading), with GT in a coaching transition, with Matt Ryan, Callender, and Challenger gone from BC, with Clemson having 9 or more days to prepare for BC, GT, & Wake, and wth FSU's suspensions, I think Clemson has its best chance to win the ACC in years.
I'd like to think that Clemson would fire Bowden if he doesn't win the ACC this year, but they just gave him a big contract extension with a big buy-out, so I don't see Clemson booting Bowden. I get really tired of hearing Bowden make excuses year after year, but otherwise he seems like a pretty good guy, so nothing would make me happier than for Bowden to finally turn the corner and lead Clemson to many years of ACC titles and more.
"Clemson" is pronounced like it's spelled.
Go Tigers!
RazzMaTazz said:
posted on March 14, 2008 5:31 PM — 70.137.157.194 — link — abuse?
Jersey? Ouch! It's kinda funny because we just had this "Clemson/Clempzin/Clemzin" pronunciation discussion at an alumni viewing party a few months ago, and everyone agreed (natives and otherwise) that Clemson is pronounced like it's spelled. I don't think I had ever noticed the mispronounciation before but some alumni get pretty miffed when people add "P" and/or Z". Do a quick web search on "how do you pronounce Clemson", and you'll see what I mean.
posted on March 14, 2008 5:58 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
No, Razz. Good-humored Clemson joke like to poke fun at some of their cousins and the way they pronounce the namesake. I was taught that by Clemson folk!
Clemson: like Auburn but with a lake.
So you're going to lead the charge for Bowden's dismissal if the Orange Tigers come out with anything less than their first ACC title since 1991? I'm not usually the first one to call for a coach's ouster, but I think this table is set!
Football_Atlas said:
posted on March 14, 2008 8:22 PM — 68.4.65.166 — link — abuse?
Speaking of droughts, how much longer does Phil Fulmer get to hang around before he gets cut loose? After a fairly successful run the in the '90s, he's been essentially treading water for the past 8 seasons, with no signs of improvement around the corner. As I recall, Johnny Majors was unceremoniously cut loose for much less than that; a simple inability to beat Alabama. My last information was that Fulmer actually got a contract extension.
Zac said:
posted on March 14, 2008 10:00 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Kevin, Post 12, thanks for the clarification. I thought we were discussing any active coach whoes team hasen't been to the BCS in a while.
Tomcat (Post 9), I think what you're referring to is part of the ebb & flow of rival teams. At times one does particularly well; at others one doesn't do so well for a variety of reasons. Auburn has had Bama's number in recent years, but they're 26-36-1 all time against the Tide. The tigers have some catching up to do.
Likewise, OSU has had their way against MI…...in recent years. The Wolverines are still 57-41-6 all time against the Buckeyes.
GA, on the other hand, has a decent lead on GA Tech, 53-38-5, and FL owns a substantial record against FSU, 31-19-2. You could argue that a 15 game delta in one case and a 12 game delta in another is that team "owning" their rival, I suppose.
Ya wanna talk about a team having another team's number, since 1983, WVU is 15-8-2 against Pitt, but the Panthers still lead the all time series 37-60-3. (I don't think any of those losses stung as badly as that last one.)
What surprises me is Auburn's all time record vs. Vanderbilt, 15-19-1, which is nearly identical to their record against LSU, 14-18-1. Any words on this, WarEagle?
Now, ya gotta wonder how long (or short) it'll be before Rodriguez returns to the BCS. As for TN's, Bill Fulmer, the Atlas is right; it has been a while.
Regan said:
posted on March 14, 2008 10:33 PM — 75.182.53.208 — link — abuse?
RazzMaTazz (#14):
I agree with many of your points, however, I must point out a few of my own:
- Of Clemson coaches that stayed 5 or more years, Bowden a higher winning percentage than all but Danny Ford.
- The 2003 season ended with Clemson being acknowledged as the best team in the ACC. Had the Tigers not stumbled early, they would doubtlessly have beaten almost any other team they would have gotten a chance to meet in the BCS.
I know, I know...“Close” doesn’t make this count – it is ONLY to indicate that he can bridge the talent gap, develop talent from sub-par recruiting classes, and has the ability to bring in mental swagger.
- You made a great point about Clemson’s recruiting improvements under TB. I attribute this talent to upgrades in facilities, TB’s willingness to accommodate playing time, and the “stability” that he has somehow established.
- I agree with you that 2008 is Clemson’s best chance yet to win the ACC Championship, with BC & FSU’s issues, those road games look more doable.
- Looking around the CFB landscape, there are few (if any) coaches that strike me as realistic candidates to replace TB that would fare much better.
- My biggest point is that I see TB as putting together every single component of a dominating, powerful team that has true staying power and could annually compete for not just the ACC championship, but the National Championship as well...
...just not all in the same year… :-)
I am not sure that I can deal with another in the long line of disappointments we Clemson fans have suffered through in the past several years either...but we must be careful about the grass being greener on the other side, and realize that Clemson IS competing for the ACC Championship every year…and we have all seen FAR worse.
Oh…and 7-2 against the Gamecocks ain’t that bad, either :-)
RazzMaTazz said:
posted on March 14, 2008 11:44 PM — 70.137.157.194 — link — abuse?
Regan: Saying "Of Clemson coaches that stayed 5 or more years, Bowden a higher winning percentage than all but Danny Ford," is a pretty contrived, and meaningless stat. Clemson wasn't very good before or after coach Ford. And I'd guess that Clemson schedules a lot more cupcakes in the Bowden era than they did in the Ford era when we had annual rivalry games against UGA and USC.
Bowden's record is 69-42 overall at Clemson, and 42-30 in ACC play. That perfectly sums up his performance. He's a 7-4 kinda guy (if you throw in a few cupcakes). And he generally goes 5-3 or 4-4 in the ACC. He's like a C+ or maybe a B- kinda coach. Clemson's AD could hire worse if he threw a dart at the list of all potential candidates. Or if Clemson's AD were smart about it, he could hire better. I think that there's no reason that a lovely, warm-weather, lakeside football school like Clemson couldn't hire an A or B+ kinda coach. There are dozens of candidates. And if Bowden doesn't win the ACC this year, I'd LOVE to give one of them a try.
Anyway, who cares about all that football stuff? Let's get down to what's important... How do YOU pronounce "Clemson"?
posted on March 15, 2008 11:33 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Zac: Where are you getting your stats? Auburn is 19-22-1 all time against LSU, which is pretty close. What's strange about those two schools is that they've been in the same athletic conferences since 1895 yet have only played 42 times.
Auburn finally went ahead of Vandy this past season and leads 20-19-1. What's strange is that Vandy hasn't beat Auburn since 1955. Vanderbilt accumulated most of it's wins against us in the early 20th century, when she was a major southern power.
Auburn owns a winning record against every SEC opponent except Alabama (down 5 games) and LSU (down 3 games). We have the 4th best conference winning percentage all-time, and we typically played the top three through-out the years (Alabama, Tennessee, and Georgia)
Scheduling like that is the reason that Auburn, according to CFBdatawarehouse.com, has the nation's 5th toughest all-time SOS.
Zac said:
posted on March 15, 2008 12:06 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
WarEagle, once again, glad to see you're safe.
I googled them, and apparently got a site that was out of date. (Please don't make me post the path; I just know I'll burn out someone's server.) Odd thing is I didn't see a date on the site I selected; so, I assumed it was up to date.
The point is, as close as those records are in this case, one can't say with accuracy that the team with the winning record "owns" the other.
Oh, let's give it a try......here goes.
http://members.tripod.com/~TIGERPATH/index-42.html
Taking a further look into some of the other stats on this page, it looks to be up to 1998. Sorry about that.
posted on March 15, 2008 12:46 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
No biggee, Zac. I use the data warehouse as my bible. If I could just print it out so I could read it in the bathroom, I'd be set!
Yea, it's hard to say that a team 'owns' another if they're only a few games ahead in the series. I think if you get up by more than 8-10% in the winning percentage, then you 'own' the other team.
Kinda like Pitt owns West Virginia! (61.5%)
Sorry! :-)
Zac said:
posted on March 15, 2008 1:59 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
"Kinda like Pitt owns West Virginia! (61.5%)
Sorry! :-)"
Hey, the truth will set ya free. (Ya bastage.)
Which brings me to a question I asked on the Open Thread, regarding a team not often discussed: Temple. When was the last time this BCS team went to a BCS bowl, and which coach brought them there? I know they haven't gone to a BCS bowl during the BCS era. I'm not certain they went to a major bowl back when Bill Cosby played for them. Have they ever gone to a major bowl?
If ever there was a team which worked hard and never got any respect, not even from its fans, is it's Temple. They have terrible fan support, not to mention little if no commitment for improvement from the school.
I can recall them having some decent seasons hither and yon over the past 35 years and still not attract more than 25,000 fans to their home games. It's why the Big East kicked them out. They weren't brining in the fans; they weren't brining in the money. And we all know college football is big business.
posted on March 15, 2008 2:17 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
I'm disappointed in you, Zac, for not having the tools to answer that question about Temple. It's either that or you're getting lazy. Fanblogs university offers some remedial classes in case you're interested.
Go to www.cfbdatawarehouse.com then select Div 1-A teams, choose Temple, then click 'Bowl History' in the left margin. You will see that they have been to four bowls, including the Sugar, albeit in 1935...
It also looks like they went to the Mirage Bowl twice, back in the late 1970s. Well, they went, but when they got to it, it turns out it wasn't there...
Hey, Temple has Bill Cosby as a fan, so I guess that's all they need...
Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on March 15, 2008 8:18 PM — 76.100.57.43 — link — abuse?
ZAC,
Oh my oh my, what Bill Stewart and company are already doing on the recruiting scene. Chris Beatty is a beast in the fertile grounds of Virginia. Nice nice to start to the season. Lets Gooooooooooooooo Mountaineers!
WEA,
I'll do all my talkin leading up to the Auburn game this year......No need for it this early.Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on March 15, 2008 10:09 PM — 76.100.57.43 — link — abuse?
Above post reminds me of Changes...."Magic Changes".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyd4lWoEJ_w
Tomcat said:
posted on March 15, 2008 10:31 PM — 68.94.172.238 — link — abuse?
Hey Zac I really dont know anything about Temple, but werent they independent and now they belong to th MAC.Its hard to draw fans win a team is not winning games whether they are part of a BCS conference or not.I did a little research and found that out of the three BCS conference schools that were mentioned in a previuos post Baylor,Vanderbilt & Duke that Baylor & Vandy have done surprizingly well considering the competition they are facing, Duke however is not.
Records over the last four years 04 thru 07
Vandy
16-30
Baylor
15-31
Duke
4-42
Temple
7-39
Rice
14-33 Heck I like Rice doesnt look that bad, they won twice as many as Temple
Sorry Zac but Temple averages like 10 losses per year, kinda hard to sell tickets with that kind of record and alot of these games were against MAC teams, its not like the SEC or XII or in Dukes case the ACC
Looking at the other end, at some of the most successful over the last 4 yrsUSC 47-5
Tex 45-7
LSU 43-9
AU 42-9
Ohio St 41-9
Ok 42-11
UGa 40-11
Fla 38-13
Teams having another teams number has really nothing to do with overall records, but only in recent times, for example during the last four years Texas has 7 losses
1- Ohio St
2-K st, 2- Tex A&M 2- OU
Notre Dame and Vandy both have overall winning records against UT, but they dont have our number.
Now some of the others
Like Tex Tech over Tex A&M 3 years in a row kinda makes you scratch your head
TTech has A&M's #- A&M has got UT's # and UT has TTech's # or does it just seem that way?
These things change and there will be streaks from time to time. Like TCU over OU 3 times in a row in Norman. Ha Ha
Regan said:
posted on March 15, 2008 10:47 PM — 75.182.53.208 — link — abuse?
RazzMaTazz (#21):
>>>Regan: Saying "Of Clemson coaches that stayed 5 or more years, Bowden a higher winning percentage than all but Danny Ford," is a pretty contrived, and meaningless stat. Clemson wasn't very good before or after coach Ford. And I'd guess that Clemson schedules a lot more cupcakes in the Bowden era than they did in the Ford era when we had annual rivalry games against UGA and USC.>>>.
Hey, I work with what I can find. :-)
I think Danny Ford is the only reason TB is on the hot seat every year. Clemson has had good years over its football history, but nothing like the 80’s. Had it not been for that era, Tommy Bowden would be looked at as the most successful coach Clemson has ever had (save for Howard, whose legacy transcends his W-L record).
However, Clemson’s schedule is much tougher than it was during the Ford days:
- The ACC itself has gotten a lot better, and I don’t just mean the Expansion Teams. If you remember back to the Ford Era, the ACC was a cakewalk each year. Now, teams like Virginia, Georgia Tech, Maryland, and Wake Forest annually offer stiff competition, unlike during Ford’s day.
- As far as the non-conference schedule, Clemson played the following non-conference regular season opponents from 1979-1989: S. Carolina (11), Georgia (9), Virginia Tech (8), W. Carolina (4), Furman (3), Kentucky (3), Boston College (2), Florida State (2), and Notre Dame, App. State, Tulane, Rice, Wofford, and The Citadel once each.
During the Bowden Era (199-2007), Clemson has had: S. Carolina (9), Texas A&M (2), Georgia (2), Louisiana Tech (2), Temple (2), Furman (2); and Virginia Tech, Missouri, FAU, UCF, The Citadel, Marshall, La.-Monroe, Wofford, Utah State, Ball State, MTSU, and Central Michigan once each.
While it is obvious that the non-conference schedule is lighter today, the Ford Era schedules packed in plenty of cupcakes as well – only in 1985 did Clemson not have a Wofford, Furman, App. State, or W. Carolina on the schedule, and VT wasn’t that good back then.
Every year, Clemson now faces strong teams in BC, FSU, GT, WF, and S. Carolina. Fellow annual opponents Maryland and N.C. State are improving. In 2008, Clemson also plays Alabama, and gets Virginia from the Coastal Division. Then, if Clemson wins the Division, they get to tangle with Virginia Tech.
It is much tougher now, all things considered, IMHO.
>>>I think that there's no reason that a lovely, warm-weather, lakeside football school like Clemson couldn't hire an A or B+ kinda coach. There are dozens of candidates. And if Bowden doesn't win the ACC this year, I'd LOVE to give one of them a try.>>>.
This might be true, but I always try to figure out who these potential coaching candidates might be. I had heard rumors that Rich Rod had said he’d like to return to Clemson, but even if true, that’s out now. You might know of more than I do, though...
>>>Anyway, who cares about all that football stuff? Let's get down to what's important... How do YOU pronounce "Clemson"?>>>.
LOL, I’m a College of Charleston grad that almost went to the U of Miami, but my dad was Clemson ’68 and I have been going to games with him ever since I can remember...
And I pronounce it the way it’s spelled – no “k”, “p”, or “z”…and unless someone’s had a few too many on game day, I find it kinda childish when people try to insult Clemson fans by mispronouncing the name like we all did in the third grade…all IMHO, of course. :-)
Clemson Joe said:
posted on March 16, 2008 1:01 AM — 165.166.31.249 — link — abuse?
This year has the most potential in all of Bowden's years at Clemson to be great. I expect great things this year, and if not, I expect the AD to make some "great" changes.
Clemson is pronounced "Clemson". If you went to the University of South Carolina, "that school in the Upstate that I couldn't get into" can be acceptably interchanged.
Zac said:
posted on March 16, 2008 1:05 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Tomcat (Post 29), how dast though illustrate OK among those teams most successful in the past 4 years, when #1 uze gize hates em, #2 WVU beat em, and #3 WVU has a better won/loss record (41-9) over the past 4 years. GEEEEZZZ!!! Just kidding, OU-Ron, et.al.
I have no doubt that Temple averaging 8-9 losses/yr (since Wayne Hardin retired) has a lot to do with a lack of fan support, which includes wealthy boosters. When Bobby Wallace took over in 1997, he recognized this and went on an aggressive marketing campaign to get fans to come to the games. He still didn't get the support he needed from the university.
So, my question is this: If the team can't attract fans to games, let alone make it to post season games (BCS or otherwise), which means they're not paying for the cost of uniforms, equipment, the facilities, trainers, coaching staff, etc., why continue to have a team at all? Consider how much more easily Temple could support female athletics, if the football team were gone, given the football team can't be doing anything but costing that school money.
The BCS has only been in existence for 11 seasons. Not only hasn't Temple made a BCS bowl in that time, it hasn't had a winning season in that time. In fact, its last winning season was 1990. Now that they're no longer part of a BCS conference, it's moot. We're back to Baylor, Duke, N Wstrn, Rice, & Vanderbilt.
Now, one could include Pitt & Syracuse in the mix of BCS drought teams, but neither Robinson nor Wannstedt had coached BCS schools prior to this. (At least, I think that's right.) So far, it looks like Bowden & Fulmer are in the lead.
Tomcat said:
posted on March 16, 2008 2:14 AM — 68.94.172.238 — link — abuse?
Hey Zac #33 My apoligies for the exclusion of West Virginia in my previuos post. Yes an oversight on my part 41-9 is an outstanding record. There are probably a few more that I didnt include that belong in that group as well.
Rice is not a BCS school I just included them, because I see some simularity between them and some others mentioned. They are a Div 1-A school with a very small aluni base and a poor history of game attendance. I've been to Rice games in Houston were the visiters outnumbered the home team 3 or 4 to 1 maybe more, no exaggeration.
I'd hate to see any school drop their football program.In the case of Temple, there is no easy answer or solution, other than there needs to be total committment from top to bottom to improving the program.
Wannstedt will have his day I'm afraid oops!
He already did-just joking
Adios Tomcat
Tomcat said:
posted on March 16, 2008 3:09 AM — 68.94.172.238 — link — abuse?
Temple & Rice both located in large Metro Cities
Both teams mascots are the Owls
Rice undergrats 3,051
Temple undergrats 24,194
Rice endowment 4.7 Billion USD
Temple endowment 204 Mil USD
Temple State assisted
Rice private
Temple University is huge compared to Rice
They have alot larger Alumni base and ought to draw some crowds.Just need to win some freakin games-the crowds will follow, years of lossing seasons, cause apathy amongst the fan base
Look what happened at Rutgers- complete turnaround- it can happen in Philly like Jersey literly Millions of sports fans to draw fromhrposon said:
posted on March 16, 2008 11:49 AM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@35 Tomcat - You forgot to include that Rice won the 2003 NCAA Baseball National Championship.
I went to the Texas-Rice game last Tuesday night and the Horns greatly outnumbered the Owl's fans at Reckling Park in Houston.RazzMaTazz said:
posted on March 17, 2008 9:33 PM — 70.137.160.71 — link — abuse?
Regan: You raised an interesting point about the ACC being tougher to win now than in the Ford era. Of course, Bowden didn't always have a 12-team ACC to get through. And you may recall that in the Ford era, UNC, UMD, and sometimes UVA were far, far more powerful than they have been recently.
Anyway, I did some research to see which coach played more teams that finished in the AP Top 20. The results are interesting. What strikes me is how much worse Bowden has done than Ford against teams that finished in the Top 20.
Note: The AP didn’t do a Top 25 ranking until 1989 so I used the AP Top 20 is used for consistency. Note also that FSU joined the ACC in 1991, Miami, VT joined in 2004, and BC joined in 2005.
Ford era:
1979: #15 UNC (L), #14 Baylor (L-Peach)
1980: #1 UGA (L), #10 UNC (L)
1981: #6 UGA (W), #9 UNC (W), #11 Nebraska (W-Orange)
1982: #4 UGA (L), #18 UNC (W), #20 UMD (W)
1983: #4 UGA (T), #19 BC (L)
1984: #20 UVA (W), #12 UMD (L), #11 SoCar (L)
1985: #18 UMD (L), #19 GT (L)
1986: #20 VT (L)
1987: #13 UGA (W), #15 SoCar (L)
1988: #3 FSU (L), #14 OU (W-Citrus)
1989: #3 FSU (W), #18 UVA (W), #19 VT (W)
11-13-1 vs. Top 20
Average regular season top #20s : 22/11 =2/yr
Average ACC top #20s played: 10/11 = 0.91/yr.
Bowden era:
1999 : #2 VT (L), #1 FSU (L), #20 GT (L)
2000 : #17 GT (L), #5 FSU (L), #19 SoCar (W), #6 VT (L-Gator)
2001 : #11 UMD (L), #13 SoCar (L), #15 FSU (L)
2002 : #3 UGA (L), #12 NCSU (L), #13 UMD (L)
2003 : #7 UGA (L), #17 UMD (L), #11 FSU (W), #15 UT (W-Peach)
2004 : #15 FSU (L)
2005 : #17 UM (L), #18 BC (L)
2006 : #20BC (L), #18 WF (W), #19VT (L)
2007 : #9 VT (L), #10 BC (L), #15 AU (L-ChicFil)
4-22 vs. Top 20
Average regular season top #20s : 23/9 =2.6/yr
Average ACC top #20s played: 17/9 = 1.9/yr.
What amazes me is that Bowden lost 22-out-of-26 games against teams that finished in the Top 20, whereas Ford only lost 13-out-of-25. Wow!
Here are three lists of head coaching candidates from Rivals.com, SportingNews.com, and ESPN.com:
http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?cid=705744
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=277335
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?id=3139834
In addition, I'm sure that somebody with TDP's resources and connections could find lots of great candidates (like Boise State's Chris Peterson) who might want to step up to a warm-weather, BCS school with a great football tradition, that sits on a lake in one of the most beautiful college settings in the country.
Clemson Joe said:
posted on March 18, 2008 9:04 AM — 165.166.31.249 — link — abuse?
RazzMaTazz:
Well said. I fully agree. Let's give him this year and see how it goes. We should certainly have the opportunity to play a few teams that will finish in the top 25 (my guess is 3), and if we can win at least 10 games it will be a success in my book. If not, it's certainly time to start looking elsewhere. I'm just not too sure how it'd all pan out with that new contract extension, but we could get to find out.
posted on March 18, 2008 11:14 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Quit riding the fence, Clemson Joe. If he doesn't win the ACC title, he gets canned. Yes or no?
Hell, even I'm committed to this. I'm in line behind Razz and Regan calling for his ouster if he fails to win it all in Jacksonville or Charlotte or wherever the hell you guys are going to play your title game this year.
You guys can't tell me that you've never heard any of your Tiger Paw brethren joke about being called Clempzin.
You can't fool this youngster. Even I:
A) Have been to a game inside Death Valley...
B) Have been to the ESSO club...
C) Know every possible combination of what IPTAY means...
D) Have eaten at Harkem and worked on my PhD...
E) Sat in traffic for hours trying to get out of there after a game...
F) Know that your mascot really is the Tiger Paws, not Tigers...
G) Know who Walter Riggs was and which team he modeled your program after...
RazzMaTazz said:
posted on March 18, 2008 7:54 PM — 70.137.160.71 — link — abuse?
War Eagle: I have to admit that you probably know more about Clemson than I do. (I graduated with a blood alcohol level higher than my GPA so I don't remember much about the place. Cute girls & drinking. Beach & drinking. Boating & drinking. Football & drinking. And then much to my surprise, somebody handed me an EE degree and a job on the way out.) I meant to tell you before that I was really impressed that you even knew that our QB (Harper) had a bad day against Auburn in the Peach Bowl. You know your Clemson stuff.
But honestly, I had never heard anybody talk about the "P" "Z" thing until a few months ago at an alumni viewing party. And even at that, the alumni were just saying that they couldn't understand why people mispronounce Clemson.
40 Acres: You're right. The links that I posted are a bit old. I copied them from one of my posts at the beginning of last season when I was calling for Bowden's ouster. Unfortunately, other ADs took advantage of those lists. I guess they were pretty good lists.
posted on March 19, 2008 11:36 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
No, Razz, I don't know more about Clemson than you, I just know more than the average CFB fan. (I will claim to know more about Alabama than the average Alabama fan, however) I have a few friends with Clemson on their sheepskin, so it's sunk in over the years. They're the ones who taught me the 'Clempzin' thing. I think it's hilarious. It seems to be a term of endearment, at least as endearing as it can get coming from opponents and rivals...
A lot of Clemson fans think that Frank Howard was the 'father' of Tiger football, and while he certainly put them on the map, Walter Riggs was the true originator of football in Clemson. Most of your fans think it's a myth that an Auburn guy started your program and modeled it after Auburn's, but it really is true.
Your college plight sounds like what mine was. Show up somewhere to have fun and grow up, get your ticket punched, then get a job and start making a living. B.A.C. higher than your G.P.A. LMAO!!
I just wish 'real life' still had a spring break...
Regan said:
posted on March 19, 2008 3:45 PM — 98.25.39.205 — link — abuse?
RazzMaTazz (#37):
>>>Regan: You raised an interesting point about the ACC being tougher to win now than in the Ford era. Of course, Bowden didn't always have a 12-team ACC to get through. And you may recall that in the Ford era, UNC, UMD, and sometimes UVA were far, far more powerful than they have been recently.
Anyway, I did some research to see which coach played more teams that finished in the AP Top 20. The results are interesting. What strikes me is how much worse Bowden has done than Ford against teams that finished in the Top 20.>>>.My points were that Tommy Bowden has been statistically one of Clemson’s best coaches, acknowledging that Danny Ford did have a better era in win percentage; I wasn’t suggesting that Bowden has anything on Danny Ford.
This is very fortunate for me – I have to admit…geez…I had no idea Bowden’s record vs. Top 20 was like that!
I love statistics, thanks for researching that…
>>>Here are three lists of head coaching candidates from Rivals.com, SportingNews.com, and ESPN.com:
http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?cid=705744
http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=277335
>>.">http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?id=3139834.>>>.Good call; hopefully we won’t need lists, but it does look like there might be enough competition to keep TB winning. I’m pretty sure he does his best while on the hot seat; maybe if he never leaves, we’ll be at the top and stay there…
Clemson Joe said:
posted on March 19, 2008 4:53 PM — 165.166.31.249 — link — abuse?
WEA:
You do know a good bit more about Clemson than most CFB fans. I'll assume that also you know that Dr. George Petrie, Auburn's first football coach, modeled your program after Virginia's. Everyone has to start somewhere, right?
I don't see at all how my statement implies that I'm riding the fence. If Bowden wins 10 games, then we should keep him. I think we are very capable of exceeding that number this year, but I find 10 to be acceptable. Any less than 10 however, is a failure in my book. I'm not a fan of firing a coach after a 10 win season under normal circumstances. If for no other reason than the fact that I don't believe there would be a candidate available that would be a significant upgrade.
Saying that he stays or goes depending on an ACC championship this year is a bit ridiculous. Who is to say that one of the other ACC teams doesn't rise up out of nowhere and play better football than anyone in the nation this year? It certainly wouldn't be the first time that the national champion was an unexpected contender. If the ACC's prognosticators are right, then sure, we should win the conference this year. We'll just have to see how the season plays out.
posted on March 19, 2008 6:01 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Clemson Joe: Of course Petrie modeled Auburn's program after Virginia's, right down to the colors--three years after the inception of UVA's program and five years before the inception of Clemson's. I didn't say that about Riggs to imply that we were your daddy or anything. At least off the field, that is.... :-)
Your statement above reminds me of the people looking for a used Honda with 20,ooo miles for $5000 or less--it doesn't exist. How can you win 10 out of 12 games and NOT win the ACC title? (Or are you planning on dropping two of four OOC games that include the Citadel, SC State, Alabama, and S. Kakalaki?)
Yea, yea, I know. It's possible to lose only one conference game and not even play for the title, but those planets don't align that often.
I'm sure you're an old timer who goes way back, back far enough to have been eating solid food when the orange Tigers won their last ACC crown. (unlike current Clemson students) I'm sure you would like to win a title as much as the next guy--AND I'm with you. I'd like to see it too!
But if you can't do it this year, with all your talent and a favorable schedule that has no VT or Miami (at least in the title game, save Miami) and a still recovering FSU squad (who's number you seem to have of late), you're not ever going to be able to do it with Bowden. Move on or it's time to re-shuffle the deck chairs, otherwise...
Clemson Joe said:
posted on March 20, 2008 9:01 AM — 165.166.31.249 — link — abuse?
WEA:
My point and case is Boston College last season. They won 10 out of 12 games and did not win the ACC. By the way, their 2 losses came in conference (to Maryland, and Florida State). I would consider their season to have been a successful one, even though they did not with the conference. Not winning the conference simply requires a team to lose one game, and one game alone. I don't think losing one game is a reason to fire a coach. The main thing for me is to win 10 games, and finish off the season strong with a bowl win. Of course, if we do win the ACC I'll be very happy, but I still want that bowl win.
posted on March 20, 2008 11:08 AM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Yes, two losses in conference can do it, but there's one big difference: BC's coach was in his first year rather than his tenth. Therein lies the difference.
Look, I'm with you. I'm not the first one to be calling for a coach's head. But I firmly believe this is the make or break year for Bowden. I think you guys can do it. Good luck.
Regan said:
posted on March 29, 2008 3:02 AM — 208.104.91.9 — link — abuse?
I just don't know. Being a fan of the Clemson Tigers has been anything but predictable for the last decade or so.
Certain memory blocks have no doubt occurred as a result of heartbreaking losses followed by beyond-improbable victories.
At some point, the mind just can't handle any more and we have 2008's average Clemson fan: a person who has great faith in Tommy Bowden to be Tommy Bowden and no idea what on earth that means.
What I really find funny is that as much as some Clemson fans want him gone, some just are no longer sure that he will ever leave.
Clemson's progress on the gridiron has been like walking across a room, but only half the distance to the door at a time - Infinite Progress, and Infinite Frustration.
Geez...this all makes sense at 3am. Good Night, everyone...*zonk*
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AUTigerFan08 said:
posted on March 13, 2008 11:25 AM — 74.239.251.222 — link — abuse?The only drought I really want to see ended is TT. It would be really nice to see the Tigers back in the Sugar Bowl. Although I don't think this thread has the right topic to make for really good blogs. I think It should have about which schools have the longest draught. Like I mentioned in an earlier thread the likes of Vandy,Baylor,Duke,Stanford,Northwesten and the rest of the private or upper academia's in the BCS would be a easy team to rally behind.