July 17, 2007
Big East to expand?
It appears that Big East Commissioner commissioner Mike Tranghese has changed his tune on conference expansion. While Tranghese was very upset at the ACC expansion just four years ago, it appears that the Big East is now looking to add a ninth football school to the conference, potentially as a football-only member.
Tranghese said his league has had recent discussions with Army and Navy, but 'there just isn't any interest on the other side.''We've talked about a ninth member,' Tranghese said. 'I think our league members would strongly consider it if there was a ninth team that would make us better. But we don't see it out there right now.'
In other words... the door is wide-open if Notre Dame wants to join the Big East. In the meantime, Tranghese will be looking around but there isn't anyone out there that sets his hair on fire.
Navy would potentially be a good add, but I think the Midshipmen are enjoying the scheduling flexibility and bowl revenues that their independent status has brought.
As for Notre Dame.... yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath.
Comments:
cardman steve said:
posted on July 17, 2007 1:10 PM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
i like the big east since my cards join. i wish the irish would join and 3 other teams as well. i wish 3 other schools such as nova,g-town and even st. john,s go d1 in football. if they don,t,i think the football schools should kick out non d1 football teams. add the irish,memphis,miami of ohio and kent st. by doing this the irish have world wide football appeal. kent st. adds the cleveland market which is huge and miami of ohio will add plenty of fire to the cincy market and perhaps get bearkat fans more fired up as well. by adding memphis helps the basketball market and secures a bowl game as well,plus,you have another big market. have a north and south div. in the north have u conn,rut,pitt,nd,syr and kent st. the south will have uc,lou,s fla,memphis,w va,miami of ohio. or east and west with s,fla memphis,lou,cincy ,the irish miami of ohio in the west and rest of the teams in the east. i know 2 mac schools and 1 c-usa team may sound weak,but the location of these schools will fuel plenty of fans and tap good players from the big 10 and sec for having these schools play bcs football. the irish,nd football maybe a little down but it,s super big time. i rather see 4 teams from the big east non bcs schools do this,but a 16 team basketball league is a little to much. 14 maybe. anyway ,i hope the best for the big east.
posted on July 17, 2007 2:17 PM — link — abuse?Kevin Donahue said:
I don't think it would be out of the question to look at Marshall as a football-only member. There have been some pretty good Marshall teams throughout the years. A move from the C-USA shouldn't be so extreme and would add some geographic balance to the conference.
At the same time, scooping up UCF would give additional Florida exposure in a decent media market and balance the conference for travel purposes. (Not to mention giving USF a more natural rival.)
I think if I had to wager, I'd put my money on UCF.
Justin D. said:
posted on July 17, 2007 2:52 PM — 24.110.200.222 — link — abuse?
UCF? I'm a UCF alumni, we're not ready. marshall could handle it, maybe east carolina, Penn State, Notre Dame, other options are Ohio, Kent St, W. Michigan
North
Cincy (OH)
UConn( CT)
Pittsburgh (PA)
Rutgers (NJ)
ND (IN)
Cuse (NY)South
USF (FL)
WVA (WV)
E Carolina (NC) FB only
Marshall (WV) FB only
Navy (Mary) FB only
L'Ville (KY)That gives them 12, and a conf title game.
Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on July 17, 2007 3:10 PM — 76.21.147.86 — link — abuse?
Kev #6,
Don't ever say that again;) (Marshall)
Rich #5,
They won the 2006 Orange Bowl against FSU.
I don't know how quickly your years go by but by my count it has only been 1 season ago.
I'm thinking it should be either Navy, Notre Dame, or perhaps Memphis. I know I know it's Memphis but like USF I think Memphis has the chance to get be really good in the future. Their BB program is already there. The market is there.gatorhippy said:
posted on July 17, 2007 3:10 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse?
K-Hue (#6):
I like that thinking...
Marshall and UCF would be good...
Their entrance would further entrench both the WVU/Marshall and the UCF/USF rivalries by forcing them to play in the same divisions...
Given that having ten teams would hopefully open up the BE to divisional play and a CCG...
Notre Dame is a little to "big time" for BE football...
At least, in their own mind...
The service academies of Navy and Army would only drag down the quality of the conference; not improve those schools...
To round it out to 12 total teams though...
That's a tough call...
Maybe any two team combo of the following...
FL Int., FL Atl., East Carolina, UAB, Southern Miss, Tulane...
Might take a few years for these guys to catch up recruiting wise but...
The BE is gaining clout and respect, so entrance would help to "legitimize" a program and help get that next level of recruits slowly and surely...
If they have the right coach...
Maurice said:
posted on July 17, 2007 3:13 PM — 204.117.78.97 — link — abuse?
UCF or ECU make sense, but if Mike wants to make a huge splash go after TCU why? The Dallas-Fort Worth TV Market and Texas recruits. Bump geographics, TCU would only play no more than four games on the East Coast. TCU would love to become apart of a BCS conference. If Mike wants to make to change the land scape of College Football go two a 12 team conference and ask TCU, SMU, UCF, and Houston, to join the THE BIG EAST
Tampa Hurricane said:
posted on July 17, 2007 3:16 PM — 24.96.199.254 — link — abuse?
gatorhippy, how would having ten teams open the big east to a CCG? Isn't the rule still that a conference needs to have twelve teams to have a championship game?
Louisville Slugger said:
posted on July 17, 2007 3:21 PM — 207.69.137.21 — link — abuse?
I'd rather see the spit happen and the sooner the better. IF we add a 9th team in football I hope it is with an eye to the future and the entire program of that school. That limits the realistic choices, in my mind, to Memphis and UCF. And yes, Memphis' basketball team and the Liberty Bowl game against an SEC opponent makes up for their football.
Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on July 17, 2007 3:47 PM — 76.21.147.86 — link — abuse?
gatorhippy,
Navy would bring down the strength of the Conference....but Marshall and UCF would add strength?
I'm not picking up what your putting down......
I see the BE as a 9 team Conference.......Add either Memphis, Navy or perhaps just perhaps......Notre Dame.I think everyone like to throw out these UCF's Marshalls and ECU's into the equation just so the rest of the non BE fans can justify us as weak. Thus stripping our BCS bid.....just my thought.....
Maurice said:
posted on July 17, 2007 4:01 PM — 204.117.78.97 — link — abuse?
Mike I know you read these blogs. Go to 12 teams
1. UConn
2. Cincinnati
3. Syracuse
4. Louisville
5. Pitt
6. Rutgers
7. USF
8. WVA
9. TCU
10.UCF
11.Houston
12. SMU
Mike The Big East would have the Largest TV Market in the US
posted on July 17, 2007 4:17 PM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
The Big East should heavily recruit Penn State to defect from the Big 10, then seek two other schools (Army, Navy) to get the magic number of 12 so that they can have a championship game like a real conference does. Having suffered a devastating defection themselves, it would be the swiftest move the BE could make, guaranteeing themselves from sliding into oblivion like the other waning conferences--Big Ten, Pac-10.
It's the first rule of any business--grow or die. Don't rule anything out yet, Big East.
thechad said:
posted on July 17, 2007 5:10 PM — 205.188.117.75 — link — abuse?
its simple notre dame needs to go to the big ten where they belong then the big east gets cebtral florida to join with a new feild and new arena comming in basketball and good tampa market it would be a good fit then let army and navy join for football only then villnova moves up from double which will happen sooner than later then you got your twelve teams then the confernce divisions looks like this
central
1 louisville
2 west virgiana
3 cincinatti
4 pittsburgh
5 villnova
6 syracuse
north
1 south florida
2 central florida
3 army
4 navy
5 uconn
6 rutgers
its that simple so thats how the big east should be we dont need memphis they dont fit the big east the have basketball and thats it memphis needs to start begging to get into the sec would be the perfect fit for the memphiscardman steve said:
posted on July 17, 2007 5:37 PM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
i feel miami of ohio,kent st and memphis are better picks along with the irish than marshall,ecu,uab,tulane,ucf,fl int ,fl int and no to army and navy. you have to look at the markets. you add akron and the cleveland area with kent st. that,s a huge market their. memphis is a large market as well. with miami of ohio you make the cincy market more secure. add the irish and you have 1 solid league. most of all,the league would not be to spread out. miami of ohio has great football history and has decent basketball at times. i confess, kent st is lackluster compare to marshall,but the market is so much bigger and getting into the bcs league will bring in better players. i consider toledo,n ill even buff,ny. it keeps the league in the east. i favor getting bc back as well.
Jarred said:
posted on July 17, 2007 5:43 PM — 75.89.102.249 — link — abuse?
Maurice, that would be wac. I would reccomend, Penn State so the B10 could go to round robin play like the Pac 10, Notre Dame would be good but won't happen, Memphis, and UCF. The only mac school to consider would be Temple. . . . . The reason being all the others would most likely need stadium expansion. Memphis averaged almost 39,000. East Carolina would be a good pick because of the almost 35,000 per home games. UCF averaged almost 23,000, but are opening a new stadium, which could push them past East Carolina for the 12th spot, depending if the fans show up or not.
South Florida, UCF or ECU, Memphis, Louisville, Notre Dame, Cincinatti
Penn State, Pitt, West Virginia, Rutgers, Syracuse, ConnecticutTom Blogical said:
posted on July 17, 2007 6:59 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse?
I'm with K-Hue, I think Marshall and UCF are logical potentials for the BE. I think ND will join a conference after they field the worst team in CFB for about 10 years straight. OK, so effectively, I don't think they'll ever join a conference.
RamblinWreck said:
posted on July 17, 2007 8:47 PM — 68.154.106.23 — link — abuse?
I don't see ND ever joining a conference, but Marshall and UCF sound like great additions. Penn State could be a nice grab for the Big East, and would make for some good football as well. I like that idea even though it probally won't happen.
NDirish419 said:
posted on July 17, 2007 9:47 PM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Paul Johnson and George O'Leary both have their programs heading in the right direction. Navy and UCF would be great pickups and create good markets for the Big East. However, if any team from 1-AA would move up i don't think it is going to be villanova. Why not a team like UMass that has had great success the past few years and is looking to make the jump.
gatorhippy said:
posted on July 17, 2007 11:34 PM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse?
Diggs (#15):
Pretty simple reasoning really...
Service academies in the present day have a tough time getting top recruits given that they are indebted to said branch for four years of service post graduation...
Think about it...
The last guy to play at a service academy then play any professional sport was David Robinson...
Teams like UCF and Marshall have a better opportunity to improve and boost their recruiting (think USF after joining the BE) by joining a BCS conference than Army or Navy...
I'm not saying that Army or Navy won't pop up and have good years...
Navy just did three or four years ago and Air Force creeps into the rankings every so often...
But service academies just can't compete for the Noel Devines, Percy Harvins and Myron Rolles coming out of HS who have potential NFL careers infront of them after college...
Zac said:
posted on July 18, 2007 12:08 AM — 65.31.230.72 — link — abuse?
The possibilities are both limitless & limited. Maurice has it dead on; Big East Commissioner, Mike Tranghese is all about big TV markets. That's why the addition of Navy, ND, & PA St would be so big. Navy is basically an international market, just like Army (another untapped international TV market). However, with Navy you get 2-for-1: The MD (Baltimore, DC) market & our "old salts". ND, & to some extent PA St, are two of those "everyone's teams people love to hate", not to mention the renewal of a most hated rivalry with Pitt. ECU would be a good addition, tapping into the NC market; Memphis would be great for tapping into TN; UAB obtains AL; TCU, as Maurice stated, nets Dallas/Ft Worth. UCF wouldn't be a bad addition, but with S FL already in the B.E., UCF would be redundant.
The question that has to be asked, with all the revenues that could come in from a TV market based Big East, are the costs each school would face justified? Consider a UMass, TCU Big East, for example. True; whether you did a North/South or East/West divisional split, likely TCU doesn't play UMass but once every 10-12 years; that is, unless both make the conference play-off. Costly travel budgets are what shoot down many of the match-ups we'd all like to see. In a North/South split, TCU would still have to travel to S FL every other year; East/West possibly involves Pitt, not to mention ND. With fuels not getting any cheaper, if the Big East expands, they're going to have to share more of the revenue with its schools.
Ideally, Notre Dame going all in, and making room for PA St, would be the way to go. The conference can stay all sport and expand to 10 teams. (Either DePaul or Marquette would have to be dropped; I'd hate to be the one to make that decision.) If Notre Dame jumped to the Big 10/11, that makes room for any 2 of the following: ECU, Marshall, Memphis, Navy, PA St, TCU, or UAB.
What Tranghese & co. may consider is splitting the Big East into an All Sports Div & a Major BB Div. This would allow for football expansion & not set apart DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, St. John's, Seaton Hall, & Villanova. This side of the fence could actually expand to pick up say Kent St & Temple. The two sides could actually act as separate conferences come BB time, but play off each other for better exposure (TV wise, of course.) and arguably get more teams into the big dance.
I like a lot of the ideas I've seen in this thread, thus far. Though reputed to being a genius of the business world, I wonder of Mr. Tranghese is smart enough to consider some of these options. How about it, Mike, ya listening?
jessi said:
posted on July 18, 2007 12:20 AM — 74.211.44.55 — link — abuse?
My personal opinion they need to grab teams with staying power such as Notre Dame, Penn State, and maybe Marshall. The others are having their five minutes of fame(NAVY). Being in the military I root for these schools, but how are they gonna recruit year in and year out.
Maurice said:
posted on July 18, 2007 8:33 AM — 204.117.78.97 — link — abuse?
People understand the bottom line is Dollars and TV Markets. If TBE expands into Orlando FL another huge TV market that equals more Florida recruits. Mike will invade SEC and ACC territory. Then Mike can blind side the Big 12, by taking 3 old SWC teams and locking down the Texas TV Markets, have more TX recruits come easts in turn you can place the old SWC schools back on the map nationally. Mike can be like P.Diddy "What you thought we were going to stop!, Ha Ha! We are The Big East Baby" If the Big East expands to 12 and tap into Texas, TBE would have the Largest TV market in the US!
posted on July 18, 2007 11:30 AM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Gatorhippy: Don't forget that service academies also have high academic standards which preclude more than a few recruits. But why wouldn't Army and Navy not want the exposure? Although additional TV money may not be a prime motivator for a government-funded institution, they would be crazy not to crave the additional exposure their programs would get, and consequently, that their branch of service would get.
Gone are the days of Roger Staubach, when the service made you complete your full military obligation before you could start playing professionally. In the case of David Robinson, I believe he was on active duty for two years, and then was able to fulfill out the remainder of his 5 year commitment in the reserves. The Navy realized the PR value of having him compete professionally.
I think Army and Navy would make fine additions to the BE. Regardless of who they get though, they better get a total of 12 so they can have their title game.
IrishJT said:
posted on July 18, 2007 11:39 AM — 65.83.54.4 — link — abuse?
There is not an elite team in the Big East. That said, there is not a team in the Big East that has been ranked in the last 10 years that would LOVE to see Notre Dame join the conference. It would be FSU and the ACC all over again. The Big East is a pathetic conference. Last year's anomaly will never happen again. Pollsters will still want to include a team from the Big East in their Top 25 polls 'just because', but in the end the teams in the Big East play NOBODY...which is to say they play each other!
Notre Dame would be just as well to join COnference USA or the Sun Belt. Anyone who thinks Notre Dame should join the Big East greatly misunderstands ND's importance to college football. "Regionalizing" the Irish is a mistake for all of college football.
Mr.McAteer said:
posted on July 18, 2007 3:02 PM — 71.206.247.138 — link — abuse?
irish jt
i dont think u would have room to talk after seeing your weak irish getting miracles from jesus himself in the games against g-tech, mich. state, and ucla.
the last 2 games of the season proved to everybody in the states that nd has not made any significant progress by getting your asses reemed by lsu and usc
ill be VERY surprised if nd wins even 5 games this year
the only reason cheeseburger charlie can get talented recruits is because he coaches "ND" and because he was in the NFL
ND plays big east teams in a number of games in the following years and i cant wait to see noel devine slice through ND defese like a knife through butter
ND overrated, all the time!
gatorhippy said:
posted on July 18, 2007 3:12 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse?
WE ATL (#29):
Robinson was allowed an early release from his military commitment due the fact he is 7-1...
He was too big for many of the positions (Submarine, Aviation, etc...) fitting his mathematics degree as an officer...
Football players on the ohter hand usually aren't going to have that luxury...
While agree that joining the BE would be good for the either Army or Navy as far as exposure and revenue...
It would not help to boost their recruiting level for the reasons both of us had mentioned...
I just don't think the BE will pick them up as opposed to some of the other teams that have been mentioned here...
If, of course, they pick up any teams at all...
Jarred said:
posted on July 18, 2007 3:13 PM — 75.89.102.249 — link — abuse?
gatorhippy, no. 31. Hence my wac statement. Who remembers the 16 team WAC? Since ND is best being independent they won't join anyone. If they did join a conference the Big 10 would be it. If they did I hope they do an east-west thing instead of what the ACC did, hideous. The BE had their chance to get Penn State. Looks like Marshall.
South Florida, UCF, ECU, Memphis, Louisville, Cincinatti
Pitt, West Virginia, Marshall, Rutgers, Syracuse, ConnecticutZac said:
posted on July 18, 2007 6:10 PM — 65.31.230.72 — link — abuse?
GatorHippy, I agree with east of the MS. In fact, the Big East was originally founded as a strong BB conference with ties to what were originally dubbed the "East Indies." These were independents which once included Army & PA St. Neither had strong BB teams at the time, which is why neither had been invited. While I agree; the addition of either Army or Navy will not improve the Big East's strength in the near term, their addition will increase the TV marketability of the conference, and over the long term (and I do mean long) eventually may help to improve the over-all athleticism of either academy. Right now, all Mr. Tranghese is looking for are more ways to make money with the Big East. If that means crossing the MS River to do it, don't put it past him.
IrishJT, buddy, how the heck are you? Always love your comments about the Big East in comparison with ND, and how SO MUCH BETTER the Irish are without the rest of the country, let alone the Big East. Yeah, we've heard it all before. Ya know what, to a large extent you're right. It really wouldn't do ND any good, necessarily, to join a conference. If ND did join one, and was allowed to have its way with regard to TV contracts, etc., it wouldn't hurt them either. The Big East is certainly not the best fit geographically for ND; I've said as much in more than one thread. The Big 10 is realistically the best fit; ND plays a number of teams from their already, and could still have their annual game against USC & throw in FSU or Miami for kicks. That's why I proposed the following:
Big East
Cincy
ECU (Army, Memphis, or UAB)
Louisville
Marshall
Navy
PA St
Pitt
Rutgers
S FL
Syracuse
UConn
WVUBig 10/12
IA
IA St
IL
IN
MI
MI St
MN
ND
NW
OSU
Purdue
WIBig 12
Air Force
Baylor (AR, CO St, or TCU, if they decide to dump Baylor)
CO
KS
KS St
MO
NE
OK
OK St
TX
TX A&M
TX TechThe SEC would look much the same, except with the loss of AR, they could pick up Memphis or Tulane.
As to the Big East being a weak, one-hit-wonder, etc, I'm not going waste my time bantering with you now as to who's right & who's wrong, when we'll be doing it again in 6 weeks. I'd rather wish you & yours the best of luck. But, don't be too surprised if ND is 4-4 by the time they play Navy. At least it'll be all down hill from there.
Buckeye70 said:
posted on July 18, 2007 6:52 PM — 208.4.85.44 — link — abuse?
Good thread, gang. Couldn't disagree more with
pip's opening declaration about Notre Dame.The Irish have every right to maintain indy
status in football, regardless of some folks'
sentiments. There are maybe 5 programs nationally
who could get away with this (Penn State,
Ohio State, "The Gang Up North," and maybe
Texas, as well as the Irish...).Notre Dame, Ohio State, Meeeeshigan and Penn
State are by far the most national of these
programs with alumni and fans everywhere.But the bottom line is the Irish will ONLY go
into a football conference if it's the Big 10.
Notre Dame isn't particularly happy with its
Olympic sports setup in the BIG EAST, but there
is simply no other outlet for the Irish and they
smartly opted for the BIG EAST because it meant
they could play in one of the nation's best
basketball conferences and get maximum exposure
there. It's sort of the best of both worlds for
Notre Dame.Naturally, non-Domers aren't happy, but I for one
as a Villanova grad, enjoy playing the Irish
(and beating them -- often) in hoops.b70
Col Reb said:
posted on July 18, 2007 9:59 PM — 64.89.171.201 — link — abuse?
If the SEC adds anyone, it would not be Tulane or Memphis. Tulane is struggling to stay afloat and Memphis is not a huge pick-up as a market because everyone in Memphis is a Tennessee or Ole Miss fan. If Arkansas left, which they should, the SEC would look at Clemson, FSU or Georgia Tech, and all would love the invite. They ll have built in rivals. The ACC is great, but the money involved with SEC football programs is insane. The only problem with these schools is realigning the conference. And the Big East is still a joke and always will be.
Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on July 18, 2007 11:48 PM — 76.21.147.86 — link — abuse?
I still don't see how Marshall would be a step above Navy.
Memphis, Notre Dame, Penn St. or bust.
Reality: Notre Dame ='s 0% chance.Memphis ='s 80% chance
Penn St. ='s 1 % chance. (Just don't think it'll happen)
shiguy said:
posted on July 19, 2007 1:18 AM — 72.14.84.112 — link — abuse?
wow how did i miss this thread for so long! ok so quickly (#25) Zac right on man, (#28) Maurice..what? why would the BE raid for FSU and Miami? the florida market is already getting coverage from south florida who is much more appreciative of the BE than either of those teams would be. finally (#30) BAHAHAH o thank you IrishJT that was a great laugh. i'd be laughing more if ND would step up to schedule with WVU but from when i talked to Rich Rod it doesn't look like it's going to happen because aparently they have "scheduling issues" with louisville and WVU. something smells like some holy water blessed bullsh$t. i find it funny also how you can so easily bash a conference that won all of it's bowls last year and ND got an undeserving slot in a BCS bowl, which they proved their unworthyness by getting mauled to death by some LSU tigers. i'm not saying a BE should have been in that spot, i just felt bad for the Wisconsins out there that should have had it. now on to the thread....
while ND is the obvious choice for this it won't happen. i wish i would have been there at signing day. aparently apon signing with the BE for all their other sports they even said to the BE commisioner "we will never bring football in" i would have tore it up right there.penn st. is another obvious but won't happen so long as jo pat is there. maybe with enough persuation though.....
unfortunately the only real choise is ECU they already play multiple BE teams so the schedule and series commitements wouldn't be drastically effected. while there is nothing wrong with ECU (they give WVU a run for their money every year, though probably having to do with the head coach working with Rich Rod before) ECU wouldn't really do much for the conference other than getting another team.
so that's my take here comes ECU but if there was ever a better oportunity grab penn st.
posted on July 19, 2007 11:22 AM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Col Reb: You're right. Arkansas' heart may be elsewhere. My choice for drafting a new team would be GA Tech. Of course, they'd want to be in the eastern division, but they could survive being in the west. UGA would be their permanent opponent from the east, and they could pick back up long dormant rivalries with Auburn and Alabama. Their annual game with Bama hasn't really gone on since the days of Bear Bryant and Bobby Dodd.
Zac said:
posted on July 19, 2007 11:32 AM — 65.31.230.72 — link — abuse?
Col Reb, I agree; AR should go to the Big-12. Geographically, it's a much better fit, not to mention some old history with many of the Big-12 schools. As for the SEC picking up Clemson, FSU, or GA Tech, again, good idea. I wasn't thinking in these terms, however, as the ACC would reluctantly (to the point of kicking & screaming), let any of these teams go. If that happened, the natural fit to fill in the ACC would be Navy, which was something I suggested in an earlier thread. That would leave Army as a good fit for expanding the Big East. Again, it may not look attractive from a conference strengthening standpoint, but from a TV marketing standpoint it's real good.
Now, let's talk about that last line. R U married to IrishJT or something?
gatorhippy said:
posted on July 19, 2007 12:26 PM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse?
Diggs (#39):
I'm not saying that Marshall would be 11-1 and competing for the MNC tomorrow by joining the BE...
Look at it this way...
You are a recruit with possible future NFL stamped on your forehead but are only attracting middling offers for whatever reason...
Your choices are narrowed down to BE schools Navy and Marshall?
Which do you choose?
Navy? Where you owe the government 5 years and risk getting maimed or killed before you can get to the big bucks if you can get in because of stringent acceptance policies academically and personally ...
Or Marshall? Where you are free to leave after 3 years and cash in if you develop and make a name for yourself...
Seems a simple choice to me...
The point being is Navy will always be Navy...
Pretty good every once in a while but mostly mediocre to sub par annually regardless of indy status of conference affiliation...
While teams like Marshall, Memphis, UCF, etc...
While mediocre for the most part currently...
Would make huge gains in legitimacy just by joining the BE and begin to be able to attract that "next level" of recruits...
For example, look at what joining the BE has done for USF and Louisville in just two years...
A team like Marshall could make the same gains just as quickly...
JMHO...
posted on July 19, 2007 1:58 PM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Zac #42: To your knowledge, do any teams sign contracts with conferences that require buy-outs if they decide to leave? I've always thought they were more or less 'tenancy at will' agreements.
Do you think that the BE should try to get 12 memebers so they can have a title game?
Zac said:
posted on July 19, 2007 4:38 PM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
GatorHippy, I agree with what you said, regarding S FL & their development since joining the Big East. I think Louisville having joined actually helped to solidify the Big East, as they were already on the way up. They were actually picked to take the B.E. conference title in their 1st year, not to mention the 5 seasons prior to their joining the B.E. were decent.
War Eagle A, I believe there is some type of buy-out involving Big East teams. If a team wants to leave the B.E., there is a procedure to follow; that's the cheapest way out, as I understand it. Consider BC, for example. They could have left the B.E. earlier, but would have had to pay more. As it was, even though they held on for one more season, they still had to pay 1-million.
I'd love to see the B.E. get to 12 teams, and I'd really like to see PA St a part of that. I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but, yes, they would get to play in their own title game. That would be cool.
Regan said:
posted on July 19, 2007 6:57 PM — 152.163.100.65 — link — abuse?
I'm glad someone besides me pointed out that the Big East might have an interest in Marshall; I've wondered why they were never in the mix to replace the 3x new ACC teams to begin with.
Having said that, anytime I have ever mentioned it to a WVU fan, it has been the same response as Diggs (#8). Apparently, they don't like each other.
As foolish as this sounds, I really want to see Penn State in the Big East. They don't belong in the Big Ten and everyone and their cousin knows it.
As far as the academies, they need to be independent - they have disadvantages in modern College Football and they need to be able to play schedules that give them winning records; warm-blooded Americans can appreciate this and let them be.
Notre Dame? I have said it before and I will say it again - Notre Dame will only be in a conference when a conference joins Notre Dame.
Strangely enough, College Football needs Notre Dame to be an Independent. ND Fans get something to LOVE - ND's Tradition; ND haters get something to HATE - ND's Tradition.
My (realistic) bets on Big East Expansion are:
1) Marshall (sorry, Diggs)
2) UCF
3) ECU
4) Boise State (kidding...I think...)gatorhippy (#31): Don't forget we live in a world where Boston College is in the same conference as two Florida teams.
I agree with you, though, which is why I didn't include Memphis, Tulane, or Southern Miss.
Zac said:
posted on July 20, 2007 12:28 AM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
Regan, I personally have no issue the Marshall joining the Big East. Without question, however, there is a lot of animosity between Marshall & WVU. Marshall having once backed out of a game series contract, and WVU's nearly out-right refusal to play in their stadium. I don't know which institution or which members of their staffs caused more trouble, rightly or wrongly. All I know is, as a result of all this childishness, there will have to be some serious fence mending before Marshall is invited to join the Big East. Not to mention (this is in spite of the fact that the annual Marshall/WVU basketball game has been a classic year after year), the Big East is still full of itself BB wise. Let's face it; the Thundering Herd hasn't exactly turned heads consistently in that area.
I really don't much care if ND joins a conference or not. While it would, without question, benefit the B.E., if they're going to join one, it'll be the Big-10, or as you've alluded to, the Big-10 will have to join them. Membership will be a tough sell to PA St, but there's a greater chance they'll come around than will ND. While that leaves some interesting options left for speculation, I'm not about to try and 2nd guess Tranghese.
As for the service academies, they want to be a part of something. Air Force already is, and consistently sports top 50 teams, not to mention occasional visits to the top 25. If they can do it, Army & Navy can do it. (Navy has in recent years.) As previously stated, given our active service men & women all over the world, in the reserves, and retired, the TV market potential is there for the taking. Only ND is more marketable by virtue of the reason you stated: Tradition. Now I'll add one: Consistent Success. Heck, if Army joined the B.E., the only team in the B.E. with more N.C.'s would be Pitt. Army currently has more N.C.'s than the rest of the B.E. combined. It didn't hurt the B.E. when Cincy & S FL joined. It won't hurt the B.E. if they were to pick up Army or Navy.
IrishJT said:
posted on July 20, 2007 11:28 AM — 65.83.54.4 — link — abuse?
Notre Dame is not just marketable because of "tradition." That understates the significance of Notre Dame and college football. This little, tiny Catholic school in Northern Indiana that has the HIGHEST academic standards in the NCAA (and proves it each year...not just on occasion) and is the most recognizable private Catholic college in the world competes week-in, week-out with some of the most dominant programs in the history of the game. Sure they get a week off against Stanford and Navy, but Michigan, Penn State, Michigan State, Georgia Tech, Boston College, Southern Cal...these aren't upstarts. They have all won multiple National Titles. There are very few teams in Big East & PAC-10 that can boast of owning one, much less two. In fact, 2/3 of the SEC cannot boast of a legitimate one...much less two (i.e. Auburn (1), Ole Miss (1), Miss St.(0), South Carolina (0), Vandy (0), Kentucky (0)...even Georgia (1)).
So for any of you to pretend that Notre Dame is on TV every Saturday because of 'tradition' is a failure to grasp how important ND Football is college football. The sport suffers when Notre Dame suffers and flourishes when Notre Dame hits its stride. That is why they are both the most beloved and hated team in the nation.
posted on July 20, 2007 11:50 AM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Irish JT: Okay, don't get started with the national championship thing. ND embellishes their record as bad as anyone does. Four of their titles are bogus; 3 back-dated titles, 1924, 1929, 1930; 1 illigetimate in 1953.
If you want to count like Notre Dame, then Auburn could claim 7 and Ole Miss 3. Georgia has 2 legitimate titles, while Ga Tech only has 1 legitimate title in the 4 that they claim.
Do you really think a school with 11,000 students is tiny?
cardman steve said:
posted on July 20, 2007 12:21 PM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
i still say,miami of ohio,memphis,kent st along with the irish are better picks than these schools. ecu,tcu,marshall,army,smu,cen fl,navy. i rather see s miss and maybe ecu,but no no no no to the rest. think! having kent st adds a huge market as in the greater cleveland,akron market. miami of ohio adds fuel to the cincy market and draws viewers from the greater dayton market as well. memphis has a bowl game and adds basketball power as well. if the irish join you will enriched the midwest and eastern market as well. marshall,no market. army and navy come on. smu,this program is on life support. tcu,to far away. no one else from the state of fla. south fla is plenty enough for a warm vacation. you have to look at markets. i rather see some big east schools go d1 football. i rather have temple back because of the market. yes,i disagree with most of your choices to join the big east. i rather see buffalo join than marshall. wva has that state market with part of the pa area. think of cities. raiding the mac large markets. n ill would be a good ideal as well along with toledo. miami of ohio football history is great with hall of fame coaches from their. the teams i favor are in better locations and not spread all over the place as well. making the upper mid west as in ohio is a great ideal in my opinion. market value is more important. i rather see s mis or ecu to a degree. i will confess s miss adds major flavor football wise,but you have to consider basketball as well. ecu and s miss bring nothing to the table basketball wise. same goes for smu,cen fl,tcu,marshall,army,navy. atleast kent st and miami of ohio have had decent basketball teans. i,ll consider bowling green also,but no mac teams from the st of mich. no ball st as well. my whole point of view is market,location and what they can do in basketball as well. any feedback?
Zac said:
posted on July 20, 2007 3:13 PM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
IrishJt, is it safe to say there's probably some envy in regard to ND on the part of "some"? It's certainly arguable. When TX ran that string of undefeated games, likely every school with an ounce of competitiveness wished they could have done the same. When "The Bear" was leading AL to glory, we all know there were probably schools wishing he were their team's coach. When PA St ran off a string of 29 consecutive victories against WVU, you can bet there were many fans out there who wished their team could do the same to the likes of AL, BYU, FSU, Miami, MI, NE, OSU, OK, TX, UCLA, USC, just to name a few. There are a lot of solid programs out there, which year after year produce hard working competitive teams, whose coaching staff has never won a N.C. It may be a measure; it is not THE measure of an institution or its sports programs.
Tradition? It's all in how you interpret it. Traditionally, ND is a Catholic University, its very name based upon historical tradition; i.e. the great cathedral in Paris, one of the 1st Gothic cathedrals ever built. Traditionally, ND is a university of high standards with a strict limited enrolment. They don't just accept anyone to this institution, though they have in recent years developed one of the most successful adult education programs to be offered by an institute of higher learning. Traditionally, hard work is expected of its students and its faculty in both achieving & providing the best education possible. Traditionally, they produce some of the best baseball, basketball, football (among others) teams in the country. Success is a tradition at ND.
Now hear this; the same can be said at a lot of places, because it's their tradition as well. So, why aren't they as marketable? Some don't have football; football is big business. Some aren't catholic schools; there is a huge catholic population in the world, let alone this country. BC, Marquette, St Johns (to name a few) are also catholic. However, they haven't quite produced the success on the field, especially in football, which ND has; again the big business of football.
Does this mean ND should join the Big East? No. Does this mean ND should join a conference? No. Come to think of it, I've heard a lot of opinions, recommendations, and suggestions regarding this issue, but not once have I heard, "ND, thow shalt join a conference." So what's the point? The point is this: We all know what ND is, and most of us know and have followed its sports traditions. You don't have to shove it down our throats. And, while I can't prove it, I'm willing to bet college football would get along just fine without the likes of ND. Now, many of us would miss it, but we'd get along.
Oh, by the way, that "Little Train Who Could" attitude, in regards to tiny little ND still being so great, don't try to sell that. ND is the US flag-ship catholic university of the richest & most powerful organization in the world. The Arch Diocese under which ND exists will see to its needs long after you & I have passed from this earth.
Oh, what the heck, one more question (This is a college football blog, after all.): Why do you suppose the Fighting Irish haven't won a N.C. in 30 years, after having won all those others? Best of luck, JT, & God Bless!!!
gatorhippy said:
posted on July 20, 2007 5:08 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse?
Reagan (#47):
I would imagine that a conference that woos the Irish would have an agreement such as this...
ND keeps all revenue from tv, mercandise , and bowls...
ND also receives 2/3 all other conference schools
revenue from aforementioned as well as half of gameday revenue from all other conference schools' home games...ND will receive the conference's automatic BCS bid regardless of Irish's W/L record...
ND will not be forced to deviate from their current traditional scheduling nor will they be required to play any members from the conference unless they want to; as well as deciding the scheduling for all other conference members in order to maximize ND revenue from other conference schools...
That seems pretty fair, right? Right?
College Pigskin Fan said:
posted on July 20, 2007 5:22 PM — 63.19.97.229 — link — abuse?
Some of you guys are showing your sense of humor with some of these postings. Let's break this down with some logic instead of emotion.
Some of you think or would like to see Penn St. join the Big East, now that's funny. So you're going to tell me that Penn St. is going to leave the second most lucrative conference in college football? The Big 10 is a solid money conference, that's why Penn St. joined it.
Big 10 1st place team goes to the BCS game or to the Rose Bowl.
Big 10 2nd place team goes to the Capital One Bowl, $4.25 million dollar payday.
Big 10 3rd place team goes to the Outback Bowl, $2.75 million dollar payday.
Big 10 4th and 5th place team will split the Alamo Bowl, a $2.2 million dollar payday, and the
Champs Sports Bowl, a $2.25 million dollar payday.Big 10 6th place team goes to the Insight Bowl, $1.2 million dollar payday.
So Penn St. is going to leave those high paying bowls for the Big East bowl allignment?
Big East 1st place team, BCS rotation.
Big East 2nd place team, the Gator Bowl, $2.5 million dollar payday, or the Sun Bowl, $1.9 million dollar payday.
Big East 3rd and 4th place team, goes to the bowl game in Houston, and to the Meineke Bowl in Charlotte, both are a $750,000 paydays.
Big East 5th place team goes to either the Motor City Bowl or the Internation Bowl in Toronto, either case, they're low paying bowl games.
With that said, Penn St. isn't going anywhere.
Some of you think or want Notre Dame to head to the Big East, that's even funnier. Think people. If you're Notre Dame, are you going to give up your own TV deal with NBC, and share your TV money with UConn, Cincinnati, and South Florida?
Are you going to give up the freedom of making your own schedule to have a conference schedule handed to you every year?
Are you going to give up the freedom of picking and choosing what Bowl game you're going to play in?
If Notre Dame turned down the Big Ten, what makes you think they would join the Big East?
Then I read somebody thinks the Big East is going to do the Texas two-step by bringing in TCU, SMU, and Houston. TCU is a good program in a good TV market, but the Big East won't expand that far west.
Memphis doesn't have a chance. Why? If the Big East wanted them, they would have invited them during the Louisville, Cincy, South Florida expansion.
Then I read someone thinks that some of the MAC schools would be a good fit for the Big East. That's not even worth my time.
Marshall in the Big East huh? A few problems. One, the Big East is not going to expand having two schools in a small populated state, and two, West Virginia would block it.
I see where some would like to see Army and/or Navy in the Big East. Army is good at war, not football. Navy will only be good as long as Paul Johnson hangs around, and that won't be forever.
East Carolina has good fan base, but the big schools want a team in a big market. If the Big East is going to expand, it will be Central Florida.
Located in Orlando, they are building or have completed a new 40,000 or 45,000 seat on campus stadium, and it helps the Big East get exposure in the Sunshine State.
One thing is for sure, if the Big East expands or not, they better get alligned with better bowl games. If they don't, 10 to 15 years from now, either Syracuse, Pitt, or Rutgers will say goodbye Big East, and hello Big Ten.
IrishJT said:
posted on July 20, 2007 8:59 PM — 71.207.207.83 — link — abuse?
War Eagle ATL,
If Notre Dame wanted to, they could count all 27...but they don't. Great point about Auburn. They have never been even close to 7 National titles...and I live in Huntsville, Alabama and my wife went to Auburn!!!! Only an idiot would claim 7 at Auburn.By the way, Notre Dame has 7,000 undergraduate students and about 1500 grad students. Get a clue.
IrishJT said:
posted on July 20, 2007 9:04 PM — 71.207.207.83 — link — abuse?
Zac,#54
Great Post!!!! You really did your homework and I appreciate the sentiments. Only one thing...and it is a small point...it has only been 19 (not 30) years since ND won a NT. Doesn't make the last 19 years any easier though! Charlie has big plans in the 2008 and 2009 seasons, so the wait will come crashing to an end.
It is amazing the amount of hate spewed towards Notre Dame on these blogs though. I can't help but wonder how it builds. Notre Dame markets itself wonderfully, holds true to its traditions AND its standards and is a beautiful campus that few claim alma mater to. I think I just answered my own question.
Benwado said:
posted on July 21, 2007 2:03 AM — 76.3.15.20 — link — abuse?
Just some realism for everyone. No service academy will join the Big East, it just won't happen. Army LEFT C-USA because they could not compete at that level WHAT makes you think they would join the big east which is ABOVE the C-USA in recruiting.... (Big East a sliver above the other mid majors MWC, C-USA, MAC) Navy does better now then it would do in the big east as it can boot a big east team if it is bowl elidgible. Penn State is highly unlikely, Notre Dame would never join such a garbage conferene without some major concessions made that increased yearly earnings (and perhaps arangements could be made that would profit both sides BUT such a deal could only be humilating to the other teams and the money probably would not be worth it). Teams on par with current big east teams that may be a good fit:
Houston (distance from other teams makes this hard but this team has a big following in a big football state in the fourth largest city in the country).
Eastern Carolina - Yeah another C-USA team... this is a solid football team that is ready for the next step... also adds a carolina team to the Big East it is certainly on par with the rest of North Carolina's teams and probably better, since most of those are in the ACC is this such a big step for ECU? Also it would open up another OCC slot for WVU!
UCF- I'm not sure the Golden Knights are ready... they did PATHETIC last year. They had a pretty decent year before that though and they are getting a rivalry thing going with USF. Even with a move to a better conference any instate talent that wants to stay close to home has UF, FSU, Miami and even USF to choose from not leaveing UCF in a weak state for the forseeable future.
Marshall is competetively probably one of the best choices, I think they would compete pretty well with the likes of Uconn, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, and Cincinatti and beating WVU, USF, Louisville is probably doable eventually. Unfortunatly as some have already said, this does nothing for the big east coffers and would be a bad choice from that perspective, that is all these conferences care about these days.You can stop discussing some teams: Army, Notre Dame, and Penn State for SURE will NEVER join the Big East in football (Notre Dame is a member in other athletic programs already). Navy probably would not be so foolish to either, they would just be fodder in the Big East and probably realize that.
Tomcat said:
posted on July 21, 2007 3:30 AM — 68.90.165.182 — link — abuse?
#58 good post
Now check this out
The Big East ought to pick up 4 Sunbelt teams
They would then have 12 teams like C-USA
The remainig 4 Sun Belt teams and the indes
join up with P-10, Wac or Mt W
Big Ten/11 should pick up 1 Mac team
Then Mac-12
Big E-12
Big Ten-12
C-USA-12
XII-12
ACC-12
SEC-12
If the Big East picked up 4-Sun belts
Makes sense geographicaly
wouldnt have to bust up C-USa
If would give Big East some tough opponents for a change and legitimize the conference as truly being worthy of the classification as [BCS conference} Go Troy Trojansjeffersoncountypapajohns said:
posted on July 21, 2007 5:57 AM — 72.188.190.194 — link — abuse?
This is what I think
(BIG EAST South)
UCF
SOUTHERN MISS OR MEMPHIS
FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL
SOUTH FLORIDA
LOUISVILLE
CINCY
(BIG EAST North)WEST VIRGINIA
PITTSBURGH
RUTGERS
UCONN
SYRACUSE
BOWLING GREEN OR NOTRE DAMEUCF WILL ADD FUEL TO THE USF AND UCF RIVARY, ORLANDO IS A BIG DESTINATION FOR TOURIST, SO IT WILL OPEN UP THE FLORIDA MARKET AS WELL AS THE FLORIDA RECRUITS, THERE IS ALOT OF MONEY IN ORLANDO, THE CITRUS BOWL IS BEING RENNOVATED AND UCF IS GETTING A NEW CAMPUS STADIUM.
FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL WILL OPEN UP THE MIAMI MARKET AND TAKE AWAY RECRUITS FROM THE ACC, FROM TEAMS LIKE FSU AND MIA. MIAMI, FSU AND UF ARE THE PAST, WHILE USF, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL AND UCF CAN BE THE POTENTIAL FUTURE, BY THE RIGHT KIND OF SPOT LIGHT.
SOUTHERN MISS OR MEMPHIS
ARE BOTH TEAMS THAT ARE LOCATED IN THE DEEP SOUTH, SO THAT MEANS SEC RECRUITS, MEMPHIS UPSET TENNESSEE, LOUISVILLE, MEMPHIS AND SOUTHERN MISS WHERE ALL IN THE SAME CLASS JUST FOUR YEARS FIVE YEARS AGO, IT TOOK LOUISVILLE TO UPSET FSU ON A NATIONAL BROADCAST TO GET RECONGNIZE, AND I BELIVE MEMPHIS CAN BEAT TENNESSEE AS WELL AS SOUTHERN MISS UPSETTING ALABAMA.
BOWLING GREEN IS A TOUHGH TEAM, BUT JUST DONT HAVE THE BCS SPOT LIGHT AND RECRUITS, BOWLING GREEN CAN ATTRACT THE BIG TEN MARKET AS WELL AS THE RECRUITS.I WOULD GIVE NOTRE DAME SPECIAL PREVILAGES DUE TO THE PRESTIGOUS HISTORY, THEY WILL ONLY HAVE TO PLAY SIX BIG EAST TEAMS EACH YEAR AND CAN KEEP ANY OTHER CONTRACTS WITH COMPANIES LIKE NBC AND ETC.
Zac said:
posted on July 21, 2007 2:25 PM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
There have been a lot of interesting ideas bantered about regarding the potential expansion of the Big East. What with 16 teams currently in the Big East, 8 of which are football affiliates, one question remains: If I were Commissioner, Mike Tranghese, how would I pull it off?
ND is already a member, all except for football. Obviously, gaining their complete entry would be ideal. Consensus, not to mention economics, indicates this is unlikely. Though, I tend to believe their full entry would have an over-all net+ result in Big East economics. PA St, though not a strong BB school, still has a rich football tradition. Their entry, though more likely than ND's, is still unlikely, at least without considerable concessions. I have already stated I have nothing against Marshall. Sadly, WVU does & vice verse.
Who's left? (I threw in some not previously considered.)
Akron - Good market, good size, good geographical fit, infrequent to intermittent success.
Army - Good market, grand history, good geographical fit, hasn't done much recently, believed by some to be disinterested (I'm not convinced of that, but we'll play it for now.)
Bowling Green - Good market, good size, good academics, good geographical fit, good past football tradition/intermittent recent success.
Buffalo - Good market, good size, good academics, good geographical fit, but Syracuse covers this area.
C FL - Good market, good size, good commitment (new stadium), good recruiting area, high travel costs. With S FL already a member, wouldn't this addition be redundant?
ECU - Good market, good size, good geographical fit, good recruiting potential, good stadium, competitive football, already plays many B.E. teams, wants to join.
FL Int - See C FL, but doesn't have the commitment…yet.
Houston (SMU, TCU, or Tulane) - All have good markets & potential, but are geographically impractical (high travel costs).
James Madison: Weak market with marketability potential, good size, good academics, good potential for growth, good geographical fit, competitive BB, good Div-2 football; would they make the jump to Div-1?
Kent St - Good market, good size, good geographical fit, interesting political history, good recent BB success, infrequent to intermittent football success; what would be their commitment?
Memphis - Good market, good recruiting area, good basketball history, competitive football, on geographical fringe (high travel costs).
Miami (OH) - Good market, good size, good academics, good geographical fit, good past football tradition/intermittent recent success.
Navy - Good market; doesn't have Army's past (no NC's), but has enjoyed recent success including alternate bowl tie-in (I don't buy disinterest in this case.).
RI - Good potential market, good size, good geographical fit, good BB tradition, Div-2 football; would they make the jump to Div-1?
Richmond - Good market, good size, good potential for recruiting, good geographical fit, Div-2 football but had been Div-1, could make the leap back; what is commitment?
S MS - Not as strong a market as some, good size, good recruiting potential, on geographical fringe (high travel costs).
Temple - Good market, poor marketing/poor commitment, good BB tradition, good stadium.
TN Chattanooga - Good market, good size, lots of potential for recruiting & growth, good BB tradition; what would be football commitment?
Troy: Good market, good size, good commitment, lots of potential for recruiting & growth, on geographical fringe (high travel costs).
UAB: Good market, good recruiting area, competitive in BB & FB, on geographical fringe (high travel costs).
UMass - Good market, good size, good geographical fit, good BB tradition, Div-2 football, but willing to make the jump to Div-1.
Villanova - Good market, good stadium ties, already B.E. member, Div-2 football but had been Div-1, could make the leap back.
William & Mary - Good market potential, good size, good potential for recruiting, good geographical fit, Div-2 football but had been Div-1, could make the leap back; what is commitment?
Did I leave any out? What about Alignment???
As stated previously, the only way to pull this off without loosing the BB strength, would be to set apart the BB side from the "all sports" side; create 2 sub-conferences as follows:
BB Div: DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, ND, Providence, St. Johns, Seaton Hall, Villanova
All Sports Div: Cincy, Louisville, Pitt, Rutgers, S FL, Syracuse, UConn, WVU, + four more.
My preferences (assuming Marshall, ND, PA St are lost causes): ECU, Memphis, Navy, and either Troy or UAB.
The All Sports Div could have 2 football sub-div's, a conference play-off game, and BB tournament involving the top 8 (the winner of which plays the BB Div winner for the B.E. BB crown). The BB Div already has 8 teams for a BB tournament. They'd have to work out the rest of the logistics, as to who plays who in BB during the regular season, but that's a topic for another thread. Within the limits of my imagination (pretty limited), this is the best I can do. What do you guys think???
posted on July 21, 2007 2:41 PM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Irish JT: If you're going to be a fan of a school, you might want to get some information about them if you're going to sing their virtues online. Notre Dame's current enrollment of graduate and undergrads approaches 12,000. I looked it up before I made that last statement. Why don't you get a clue and verify it before you retort my statements. I look forward to your retraction.
No one at Auburn claims 7 NCs. We take the high road and do not claim back-dated titles or titles from minor selectors, unlike Notre Dame and Alabama. If you don't know how national championships in 1A football are awarded, read the posts from this thread:
http://www.fanblogs.com/washington/006968.php
Notre Dame couldn't claim 27 NCs no matter how liberally you defined the term. Only Harvard and Yale could come close to 'claiming' that many, and that's only because they were virtually the only ones playing football in the early years. No one gives those claims any credibility. It sounds to me like you've been drinking the green Kool-aid.
cardman steve said:
posted on July 21, 2007 6:14 PM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
jeffersoncountypapajohns,you make some sence. i keep seeing marshall and i say no. i rather have miami of ohio that has great football history. i say no to army and navy as well. penn st is not going to join the big east. i just don,t want to see the big east get spread around as in distance. my whole point is market along with location. the only things i don,t like about ecu and s miss is basketball and distance. memphis would add both and beaten the vols in football as well. miami of ohio plays good football. has great history as the cradle of coaches. they play decent basketball and adds fire to the cincy market and that makes dayton a market as well. i rather see bowling green,toledo,kent st,n ill and buffalo than marshall from the mac because of market value. ecu,s miss,marshall have no market value. memphis is south enough and memphis would add market value by extending coverage to arkansas and mississippi. kent st gives you the cleveland akron area and thats a big viewing market. i know kent st is the weak sister of the whole bunch,but has the 2nd biggest student body in ohi for a college. having bowling green and toledo is a market in 1. they both have had good football teams in the past. i feel their basketball programs are better than marshall,army,navy, ecu ,s miss and anyone else spoken of. nd irish will not join,raid the mac and take bowling green,toledo,miami of ohio along with memphis. this will help the big east market. you , ll end up taking away some of the big 10 market and sec as well. i will consider ecu. i feel the big east in basketball is too big and it,s a total dog fight as well as in brutal. atleast 4 teams need to go d1 or the football schools split and pick 4 of the following teams and think of the market and what these schools bring to the table with basketball in mind as well. the list is n ill, memphis,ecu, buffalo, miami of ohio, kent st., toledo ,bowling green, s miss. perhaps lure bc back and the irish and penn st are total long shots.
cardman steve said:
posted on July 21, 2007 9:43 PM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
zac,you make plenty of sence as well. i rather raid the mac and i feel you don,t need another team from gator land. their is plenty to pick from off the east coast and the eastern part of the mid west.
Tomcat said:
posted on July 22, 2007 12:20 AM — 68.90.165.182 — link — abuse?
#65 WareagleAtl excellent post pass me some of those crazy pills and I'll washem down with orange koolaid. IrishJT is listening to Keith Jackson's commentary about the four horseman etc. etc. Watching movies staring Ronald Reagan win one for the gipper.Oh yes those thrilling days of yesteryear.
War Eagle how bout those Tigers
Beat the H outa KSUIrishJT said:
posted on July 22, 2007 7:42 PM — 71.207.207.83 — link — abuse?
War Eagle ATL,
Again, you are incorrect. Notre Dame has campuses around the world and that is where the 12,000 number comes from. The number of students in South Bend is around 8000. And only PRINCETON can claim the most national titles.By the way, I'm not a fan...I'm an alum. LOOK THAT UP MORON.
shiguy said:
posted on July 23, 2007 1:06 AM — 68.81.91.178 — link — abuse?
bahahahaha! thank you irishjt i look forward to your posts everytime. not that i agree with you, it's just so comical to read your posts. such as you just bashed War Eagle because he didn't know you were an alum as if he really had any way to know that. furthermore, i will respect that ND really doesn't have much to gain from joining the BE, however to give your school so much credit to say that without ND there would be no football. i believe rutgers actually has more claim to that as they played the first series of what would be called modern football games in history. also i would not be so large as to claim that ND is the only academic school out there as Air Force has the highest average team gpa almost every single year. now that being said i am no way shape or form saying that ND is not a good school with an excellent football program. however, bringing up claims of past national championships doesn't mean so much anymore. army being a perfect example going by your logic army should be right up there on that pedistal with you. but they're not, furthermore i believe the good fighting irish now hold the record for the longest bowl loosing streak. not trying to start a fight dude but seriously we all have great schools we go to and unless you're a #1 grad from MIT i don't think any of us really can be bad mouthing others schools...other than topics solely related solely to football :-)
posted on July 23, 2007 11:17 AM — 152.163.100.65 — link — abuse?
IrishJT: I did look up moron. It said, "See IrishJT". You're quite eloquent in your comments. I wouldn't expect anything less from a ND alum. No, you are wrong. I've verified it through a few sources. The enrollment at the South Bend campus is over 11,000. And no, that does NOT include the campuses of Notre Dame-Kuala Lumpur and Notre Dame-Tijuana, et al.
Send me a link to where I can see ND's 27 NCs. I'm curious where you conjured those up at.
Tomcat: Wouldn't that be 'Burnt Orange Kool-Aid? I don't know what to expect from Kansas State. They don't hang as many points up since Bill Snyder left. I'm figuring that Auburn is watching a lot of film. I like these games against other BCS conference opponents that we have seldom or never played before.
Shiguy: Without Notre Dame, college football in it's present form would not exist today. Bah-hahahaha! Okay, I thought I could do it. I almost said that with a straight face. I just spit my drink all over my screen. Bah-hahahaha!
Mc Duck said:
posted on July 23, 2007 5:33 PM — 63.230.172.173 — link — abuse?
According to Wikipedia, the number of students enrolled at the University of Notre Dame (South Bend, Indiana) is 11,479...ND is not one of the larger universities in the United States...it is especially small for a mid-western university...if you compare and contrast the number of students at ND with that of Wisconsin, or Michigan for example, the numbers are staggering...for example, Michigan enrolls close to 41,000 students and Wisconsin enrolls around 41,500 students.
M GO BLUE said:
posted on July 23, 2007 6:24 PM — 216.46.211.49 — link — abuse?
The Chipper - Yup Penn State can't hack the Big Ten =) the Big Ten is simply too big and tough for Penn state =) (or at least Michigan is)
2006 Michigan 17-10 at penn st
2005 Michigan 27-25
2004 did not play
2003 did not play
2002 Michigan 27-24
2001 Michigan 20-0 at penn st
2000 Michigan 33-11
1999 Michigan 31-27 at penn st
1998 Michigan 27-0
1997 Michigan 34-8 at penn stYup they have somehow managed to drop 8 consecutive games to Michigan.
P.S. I like Penn State.......but even Notre Dame would not drop 8 staight.
BlueGold95 said:
posted on July 23, 2007 11:44 PM — 24.7.238.54 — link — abuse?
Wow, there's a lot to read here. War Eagle Atlanta, there's a PDF fact sheet on the Irish athletics site that breaks out the "consensus national championships" for ND. It doesn't look like 1953 is among the 11. Rather, that's one of the other 10 years in which ND was top-ranked by at least one selector. My math says 21 seasons that ND could claim, not 27, but maybe IrishJT can clarify.
Regarding the "tiny school" comment, the irony may be that such a remark was more true in the years when ND was winning titles more often. I think that ND's size and Catholic nature deserve more emphasis when discussing why ND hasn't joined the BigTen. It really doesn't fit except for football and geography. Maybe if football were its own setup, like college hockey? On the other hand, while there are many schools in the Big East similar to ND, there really aren't any rivalry matchups (maybe Pitt if you ask Mark May). I think Tranghese stated the obvious that the conference would like to add a member, but unfortunately there's no obvious team other than ND.
Personally, the main reason I'd like to see ND join a conference would be if we finally had a system where all conference teams played each other, where there were no conference title games, and where we had a playoff involving only conference champions. That's not going to happen.
Zac #55, what's your reference though they have in recent years developed one of the most successful adult education programs to be offered by an institute of higher learning? As for the cathedral in Paris, it shares a namesake with the University but it is not the namesake of the University. Your remarks about all schools having positive aspirations and traditions are well taken, though. My main complaint is with other schools not requiring better graduation rates, but I realize that's a tough number to track and I was happy to see Florida's number around 70% as opposed to the 44% for the previous national title winner.
Mc Duck said:
posted on July 24, 2007 7:38 AM — 198.237.180.60 — link — abuse?
War Eagle Atlanta #75...ya, I know what IrishJT was saying...he made the comment that Notre Dame's enrollment was around 8,000...I was giving him truer numbers...But you have to admit that Notre Dame is smaller than alot of Division 1 schools...On a side note, I thought the "Moron" reference at the end of his last post was uncalled for...again, what's with the ad hominems?
posted on July 24, 2007 6:34 PM — 64.12.117.11 — link — abuse?
Blue Gold95: I appreciate the link you sent me. Unlike IrishJT, who as McDuck pointed out, only has the ad hominem response, you have provided some basis of fact from which to argue. If you could, go review a previous thread on here concerning national championships, where I, et. al., give some background on the history of the national championship: http://www.fanblogs.com/washington/006968.php
It may make what I'm about to say a bit clearer:
Notre Dame is generally credited with having 12 bona fide national championships (NC). Considering that the first three they claim are 'back-dated' titles, (see above referenced link) no rational person would claim those years. 1953, which is missing from your list provided by ND, is a true illegitimate title. Many selectors chose ND, but not the two that counted.
I concur with the 10 years that ND mentions that at least one selector chose them as NC--it is true--at least one of over 30 different selectors chose them as their NC for that particular year. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that ND has not officially recognized all 21 of them, considering their willingness to embrace weak claims. ND embellishes their resume with 3 back-dated titles, and the 1953 season (which is generally credited to them, although apparently not by the University ), so why not the rest? Possible titles of 1919, 1920, and 1927 would all be back-dated titles, in addition to the already claimed back dated titles of 1924, 1929, and 1930. Why not claim them all? Part of the reason Knute Rockne embraced the Dickinson System back in the day was for their willingness to retroactively crown teams as champions.
As far as the other titles are concerned, since the 1980's it has been virtually impossible to make a claim based on minor selectors. Perhaps in a few decades some teams may try to sneak one past us, similar to what the Washington Huskies tried to do recently, when they think no one is watching. Hopefully, that will be the coup de grace for their credibility when they do...
A resonable, rationable person would say that Notre Dame has 8 legitimate titles, defined as modern titles (1936 on) and ones where they were selected by at least one of the two legitimate selectors (the AP and coaches poll). You shouldn't fret. That's still more than anyone else, including the all-time embellisher, Alabama (7).
McDuck: Four Latin references--top that!
BlueGold95 said:
posted on July 24, 2007 7:58 PM — 24.7.238.54 — link — abuse?
It's clear that you have a bone to pick, WEA #84. Rest assured, I don't lose sleep over how many official NC's Notre Dame has won. I would reiterate, though, that ND's official archive page does not claim the 1953 title, so I'm not sure why you're bent on pointing out its illegitimacy.
Now that you've encouraged me to review the matter, what specifically is wrong with ND's three backdated titles? Are there other "selectors" than the ones listed on the ND fact sheet? If not, it appears that ND captured the vote of all but one or two in each year and, in 1924 and 1929, the Irish were undefeated on top of that. For 1930, why not call it a split title with 'Bama? I don't see this as "irrational".
My best guess is that Notre Dame wants to list titles from the Rockne era, given the man's significance to the school. In any case, I've never bashed any team for claiming illegitimate titles (although I don't mind referring to Michigan's 1997 title as shared). It seems like the main thing is for everyone to use the same point of reference. Having never perused the specific years and polls, the only numbers I'd heard from ND fans were 8 or 11, usually with the caveat "it depends how you count". Eight titles is enough for me, at least until after the 2008 season. :-)
Everyone else, I apologize for posting about a topic that had its own thread...
BlueGold95 said:
posted on July 24, 2007 8:03 PM — 24.7.238.54 — link — abuse?
Speaking of counting, WEA #84... What are your four Latin references? If you are counting coup de grace, you might want to only claim three references on your official publications. Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;-)
Mc Duck said:
posted on July 24, 2007 8:53 PM — 63.230.172.173 — link — abuse?
War Eagle Atlanta...I think a mea culpa on IrishJT's part would be apropos seeing that he droned on ad absurdum in previous posts on this thread...only to sign off his last one with an insult towards you. But enough about that...because of my Catholic roots, I grew up a fan of Notre Dame Football...I am still a fan of the Irish...even though my biggest support is focused on the Oregon Ducks...that being said, I agree with you that the number of recognized or consensus National Championships for Notre Dame stands at 12...I too am a bit confused as to where IrishJT comes up with 27 National Championships for the Irish. Absum!
Mc Duck said:
posted on July 24, 2007 10:19 PM — 63.230.172.173 — link — abuse?
Notre Dame our Mother
Tender strong and true
Proudly in the heavens
Gleams thy Gold and Blue
Glory's mantle cloaks thee
Golden is thy fame
And our hearts forever
Praise thee Notre Dame
And our hearts forever
Love thee Notre DameCape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on July 24, 2007 11:04 PM — 24.218.208.81 — link — abuse?
Okay guys;
You may think I'm nuts and maybe you are right, however, let's take CLOSER LOOK. There's big money behind the big east, no dought. Why not expand the market to the west coast? Sure there will be a lot of logistical issues but the pay offs could be great.
Last year I wanted RU to play Boise State or Oregon State. That would have been interesting, especially for Rutgers fans. During the baseball season, RU played Oregon State in the first round of baseball playoffs and it was close. The beavers went on to win the college world series. Both east and west were watching. Why? Because 70% of our population lives on the coasts. That's millions of viewers. Football would be the same.
After all, the world is getting smaller every day. Why not feed an east vs west coast rivalry?As for the SEC, sooner or later they will have to deal with teams from the Big East. These teams have arrived. All of NYC is behind Rutgers. I don't believe last season was a one hit wonder. There's just too much money in those Yankee pockets. These fans have waited 100 years for a winner and by God they will have one!
In addition, just wait until Syracuse gets back on it's feet. You boys from Auburn remember those days I'm sure.
The thing that bothers me the most is the realative competitiveness of the Big East. At the moment it's easier than the SEC. That means a lot. That's why we need a titan to join the league. Bring in the Irish or Penn State, Oregon State, Arkansaw or Wisconsin.
Wishful thinking? We'll see...
Col Reb said:
posted on July 25, 2007 8:30 AM — 75.66.27.236 — link — abuse?
CCTR 84, I think that West Virginia vs Arkansas would be a great rivalry every year. Demographics are close and it could be the "Whining Bowl". The only problem is that Arkansas is over 500 miles from the nearest Big East team.
IrishJT said:
posted on July 25, 2007 9:28 AM — 71.207.207.83 — link — abuse?
War Eagle ATL,
Notre Dame does not claim 12 NTs...they claim 11. They have been voted National Champs, by at least one respected organization, 19 separate times. Alabama, on the other hand, claims 12, but probably has closer to 6 and some would argue 3 (i.e. 1973...Alabama claims this as a National Title (UPI) but lost Notre Dame, the AP National Champ, in the bowl game. The UPI was so embarassed that they stopped picking a champ BEFORE bowl games.). So the twenty-something post was incorrect. However, the 8,000 undergrad comment is absolutely a fact.https://admissions.nd.edu/firstyear/statistics.cfm
Evidently our graduate program has grown since Class of '95, but our undergrad is around 8000 and for D-I College Football that is TINY!!!!!
Quit walking around with your ass on your shoulders all day and pay attention. Now THAT'S an ad hominem attack.
posted on July 25, 2007 12:59 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Blue Gold 95: I have a bone to pick about national titles in general, not just with Notre Dame. Yes, coup de grace is French. I realized that when I hit the send button. Sometimes I get my romance languages mixed up. Yes, as I pointed out, it appears that ND does not claim 1953 as a NC, although cfb data warehouse.com gives them one for that year, and so do some other sources. So they're claimed total is 11.
I do not recognize back-dated titles and titles from minor selectors. What is a back-dated title?
The AP poll debuted in 1934, took 1935 off, then has run every year since 1936. The UP poll debuted in 1935, then didn't poll again until 1950. In 1958 it became the UPI poll, which most of us remember, and it ran until 1995. By 1997, it had been supplanted by the new USA Today/ESPN poll, which still runs today.
Prior to the AP and UPI poll debuts, there was no such thing as a national championship. By the early 1930s, sufficient interest in college football was building that people started wondering who the best team in the nation might be. Thus, the polls were born. Once they hatched, some folks wondered out loud about who might have been the best teams in the seasons prior--going all the way back to the 1860s. A multitude of 'selectors' then arose, using mathmatical models in an attempt to statistically calculate who the strongest team of a given year might be. These many selectors then chose who they thought might have been the 'national champion' for a given year, not always agreeing, since there were upwards of 30 or more selectors in the business after a few years.
Therefore, since a national polling system wasn't created until 1934, any claims of a national championship prior to that is most likely because some statistical selector awarded the team a 'back-dated' championship well after the fact. Some even bypassed using statistics and simply voted for teams years later. Suffice it to say that since these selectors chose sometimes decades after the fact, their results are simply not credible. Any team that claims a back-dated title is just practicing plain and simple resume embellishment. Period!
Most of these early selectors have faded into history, although some still survive, and new ones are born every year. As long as there is subjective ambiguity in Division 1-A's football champion, these selectors will attempt to carve out their little piece of significance. Today we basically only recognize the AP and Coaches polls as being legitimate. All the others are also-rans.
Split titles are different. If the two major selectors disagree on who's the NC, then we have a split. It's been a part of college football since the polls began, and we all accept it.
Having a correct number of national chmapionships is important because we all like to rank our teams against the other guys. There should be an accepted standard to what a school can claim. With the exception of the back-dated titles, ND is fair with what they claim. My school, Auburn, is fair with what they claim--again, no back-dated or minor-selector titles.
IrishJT: I never mentioned undergrad enrollment, just the the total enrollment. Face it, bubba, you lost that arguement. What makes a university a university, and not a college, is that they have students pursuing post graduate degrees. You should know that. The way you act on here sometimes gives me serious doubt to whether you really received an education from a school as esteemed as Notre Dame, or if you merely attended UA-Huntsville.
Zac said:
posted on July 25, 2007 2:08 PM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
BlueGold95: I reference four people. Two of them I work with, who took advantage of ND's Adult Ed programs. One of them is a supervisor; one is a Lead Accountant. The other 2 are friends who took a paradigm shift; left the east coast to finish their education. Last I spoke with the one, I practically quoted him word for word, with regards to my post. I don't think anyone can argue the standards of ND. They certainly compare with the likes of any Ivy League schools, Cal/Berkley, MIT, or VA Tech, to name a few. What is arguable is the condition of college football were ND no longer in the picture. Now, personally, I would find that sad. However, were ND no better than St Bonaventure, human nature being what it is, some of us would be ragging on some other school.
Cape Cod Monsta, the Big East has money. I'll give Mike Tranghese that much; he is one heck of businessman, for the most part. The question remains, why didn't he see the ACC acquisition of 3 of the better Big East schools (Yes, C-D, arguably Miami was the best.) coming? Not to mention, as a counter measure, he was in favor of offering Miami 9 million bucks over 5 years to keep them. What a slap in the face to BC & VA Tech. Not to mention, if he was in favor of this, how come he hasn't worked something out to make ND an offer they can't refuse? As for expansion, spreading out to take advantage of TV markets eventually presents a point of diminishing returns. Go too far, you have excessive travel costs, not to mention excessive travel time. And, as we all know, time is money. FYI: The SEC is contending with the Big East (KY/Louisville, MS St/WVU, S FL/Auburn, WVU/Auburn, and more to come.) Cincy plays OR St this year. Worry not; Rutgers will likely get their chance.
IrishJT, if there's a positive correlation between school size and success of their football program, it's likely a few hundredths above 0.5. The fact is there are a lot of big schools out there (20K or more students) without football programs, let alone lousy ones. The key to any successful program is coaching & money. ND may have had some laps in the former, but they've always had an abundance of the latter. Money for the best equipment, money for the best facilities, money for the best doctors & trainers, money to spend on recruiting trips; you name it; they got it. It doesn't matter how many kids are enrolled; what matters is do you have the resources to go out and get the best. (Oh, by the way, sorry to have forgotten Holtz's '88 championship.) To some extent, culture has an impact. Why do you think Army hasn't won a championship since 1945? There are three primary reasons: Not enough money is spent to convince the better athletes of the advantages to joining the armed services; prevailing politics, and culture (You don't see patriots like Paul Revere running around anymore, more's the pity.) Notre Dame always has, and until it crumbles to the ground always will have the backing of the Catholic Church. Pax et Dominus vo bis cum.
Maurice said:
posted on July 25, 2007 4:04 PM — 204.117.78.97 — link — abuse?
There is no way the Big East will expand unless the football teams will pull away and form their own conference. If that happens I can not see any BCS schools jumping to the Big East. I can see the Big East raiding C-USA again. Like I said again follow the money. The Big East could make a killing financially if they would get SMU, TCU, UCF, Houston b/c they are up and coming programs with huge TV markets. It is just wishful thinking.
M GO BLUE said:
posted on July 25, 2007 4:58 PM — 216.46.213.182 — link — abuse?
Cape Cod Tom 84 Rutgers, I see you would like a "power house" school to join the Big East, and I see you have Wisconsin listed as a team you would like to see join the Big East.....
The University of Wisconsin, was part of the "original seven" schools in the Big Ten conference, which came together in 1896, Wisconsin also won the First two conference championships in football. "Camp Randall" (83,000) is the oldest football stadium in the Big Ten.
Wisconsin bleeds Big Ten.
And for Penn State.......what can the Big East offer that the Big Ten could not?.......except for a weaker schedule and a better chance of a conference championship.
Honestly I would simply hope Rutgers builds it's own power house and helps it's own conference gain respect, because a team like Wisconsin, or Penn State could take the Big East lights off Rutgers and on to the "new Power house".
College Pigskin Fan said:
posted on July 25, 2007 7:36 PM — 63.19.98.228 — link — abuse?
Some of you guys are still showing off your sense of humor how you are wanting/hoping Penn St. and/or Notre Dame goes to the Big East.
So, here's a copy and paste from my earlier post along with a few more reason why some of you are wishing for a dream that just won't come true.
Some of you think or would like to see Penn St. join the Big East, now that's funny. So you're going to tell me that Penn St. is going to leave the second most lucrative conference in college football? The Big 10 is a solid money conference, that's why Penn St. joined it.
Big 10 1st place team goes to the BCS game or to the Rose Bowl.
Big 10 2nd place team goes to the Capital One Bowl, $4.25 million dollar payday.
Big 10 3rd place team goes to the Outback Bowl, $2.75 million dollar payday.
Big 10 4th and 5th place team will split the Alamo Bowl, a $2.2 million dollar payday, and the
Champs Sports Bowl, a $2.25 million dollar payday.Big 10 6th place team goes to the Insight Bowl, $1.2 million dollar payday.
So Penn St. is going to leave those high paying bowls for the Big East bowl allignment?
Big East 1st place team, BCS rotation.
Big East 2nd place team, the Gator Bowl, $2.5 million dollar payday, or the Sun Bowl, $1.9 million dollar payday.
Big East 3rd and 4th place team, goes to the bowl game in Houston, and to the Meineke Bowl in Charlotte, both are a $750,000 paydays.
Big East 5th place team goes to either the Motor City Bowl or the Internation Bowl in Toronto, either case, they're low paying bowl games.
The Big 10 has some of the biggest stadiums in the country.
Ohio St. 101,500 capacity.
Michigan 107,500 capacity
Mich St. 75,000 capacity
Wisconsin 80,320 capacity
Iowa 70,585 capacity
Illinois 69,250 capacity
Minneasota 64,170 capacity
Purdue 62,500 capacity
And the two smallest Indiana 52,350
Northwestern 47,130Compared to the Big East Stadiums
Pittsburgh 65,000
South Florida 65,000
West Virginia 60,000
Louisville 42,000 soon to expand to 60 or 65,000
Syracuse 50,000
Rutgers 41,500
Connecticut 40,000
Cincinnati 35,000
So if you're Penn St., you're going to leave the big stadiums and the big money bowl games of the Big 10 for the smaller stadiums and the smaller bowl payouts of the Big East? If you would, you're not a very smart business man.
Stop looking on a map, and start looking at the dollars. Penn St. isn't "coming home" to the Big East when Paterno retires since the Big East was never their home to begin with, and because Penn St. is not going to give up a gold mine for a coal mine.
With that said, Penn St. isn't going anywhere.
Some of you think or want Notre Dame to head to the Big East, that's even funnier. Think people. If you're Notre Dame, are you going to give up your own TV deal with NBC, and share your TV money with UConn, Cincinnati, and South Florida?
Are you going to give up the freedom of making your own schedule to have a conference schedule handed to you every year?
Are you going to give up the freedom of picking and choosing what Bowl game you're going to play in?
If Notre Dame turned down the Big Ten, what makes you think they would join the Big East?
Sadly, some of you still won't get it.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on July 25, 2007 10:56 PM — 24.218.208.81 — link — abuse?
M go Blue:
I'm not too sure about that. Penn St. and Wisconsin are beatable. Both teams have struggled in the past 5 years, though Wisconsin had a good year in '06.
Things are changing fast. Rutgers will succeed, they've been at it a long time. I know some of the trustees personally, I grew up in the Rutgers faculty family. I know the president and big wig financiers of the institution. Trust me on this one, they mean business and are bent on a winning team. Thirty years of frustration is a compelling motivator. It's not just the money, it's Jersey pride hanging in the balance. It's in the blood. Being a wolverine, you should understand what I'm saying.
Rutgers will be a powehouse in the Big East. All of the sports progams, save mens' basketball are leading the league and kicking ass.
Things are changing on the banks of the Raritan.
-CCT
BlueGold95 said:
posted on July 25, 2007 11:08 PM — 24.7.238.54 — link — abuse?
War Eagle #95: Thank you for the explanation of back-dating. I had read your words in the other thread, but they're worth repeating. It sounds like we agree that a common methodology should be used, and you are right that it makes sense not to count titles that were awarded some years after the actual season was played. As long as there is subjective ambiguity in Division 1-A's football champion, these selectors will attempt to carve out their little piece of significance. Well said.
__________
Zac #96: Thanks for clarifying your 'adult ed' reference. Somehow I'm just not accustomed to hearing that phrase used to describe the continuing/professional education programs. I should have figured that one out. Your point about winning and relevance is, of course, on the mark.
As for the military academies' fall from glory in college sports, I have to think that your third reason (culture) is the biggest by far. Economically, I think that the issue is less about money to lure athletes, and more about athletes knowing that they'll have military commitments after college and thus won't be heading right to the big money of the pros.
Regarding enrollment sizes, the stats I was able to find (mostly Wikipedia and college sites) show that Notre Dame is larger than only 10 other D-1A schools. It's basically the same size as Vandy, Duke, and LA Tech. It's bigger than the 3 academies, Tulsa, Rice, Wake Forest, Louisiana-Monroe, TCU, and SMU. With kudos to the Demon Deacons for their recent success, it's hard to call WF an established "power house" football school.
Combining that enrollment data with the stats page at stassen.com (and using their default settings) shows that the average enrollment of the other nine schools in the top 10 for all-time win percentage is 35,000. That's over three times the size of ND. Notre Dame is not *tiny*, and you're right that there's barely any correlation between enrollment and winning percentage, but in the top 10 ND stands out.
__________
Pigskin #99, those are compelling facts. As a Notre Dame fan, I think that they highlight why it would be hard for ND to pick a conference. The focus on football (money and stadium size) at ND matches with the Big Ten, but the culture is much more similar to the Big East schools. As for the alternatives for the BE expansion, I just don't see how a school would want to put its football team in one conference and everything else in another. Maybe 'Nova will step up to fill the void left by Temple.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on July 25, 2007 11:12 PM — 24.218.208.81 — link — abuse?
Zac:
Cape Cod Monsta? I like it! The only problem is...I'm a good old Jersey boy through and through. True Red from the banks of the Raritan. Therefore, I am the Cape Cod MonstER!
That sounds even better.
-CCT... err; I mean, CCM.
posted on July 26, 2007 11:23 AM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
BlueGold95: Thank you for your consensus. When you start talking NCs on here, most people want to stick their head in the sand and continue believing what they've always been spoon-fed.
I'm curious how in another 100 years people will treat the NCs of old. Hopefully by then, a playoff will have been put in place for quite a few decades hence, and it'll no longer be up for debate.
College Pigskin Fan said:
posted on July 26, 2007 9:43 PM — 63.19.38.207 — link — abuse?
Cape Code Tom you might have hit the nail on the head with that observation. Penn St. is close to New Jersey were Schiano is from, if Penn St. does come calling, it might be too hard to turn down.
BlueGold I look at it like this, if Notre Dame would join a conference, they would handcuff themselves on scheduling, and lose alot of TV and bowl money that they get 100% of. I'm sure they would want alot of say in the conference, something a conference would not want to give them.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on July 26, 2007 9:44 PM — 24.218.208.81 — link — abuse?
UMass and ECU make sense to me. They aren't titans, but that may be the best the BE can do for now. Both are ready and offer great markets. Umass could replace BC, marketwise. They have 30,000 students! Nice campus too.
Zac said:
posted on July 27, 2007 10:54 AM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
CCT & CPF, as time allows, check out post 64. I basically provided most of the options available with a small critique of each (advantages/disadvantages). I agree with ECU as a good choice. I think their entry into the Big East would assist with gaining their sports programs more credibility. UMass, I'm not as certain of. Though, UConn didn't make a bad transition from Div-1 to Div-2.
I disagree with ND being shackled from entry into a conference. For a number of years they have played MI, MI St, and Purdue, more than half of the teams they might have to play on what might be their side of the Big 10. Not to mention, they could easily join a conference and NOT have to give up revenue from their own TV deal. That should not deter the Big 10 from pursuing them. Consider the recruiting value alone to schools in the Big 10 by being able to offer ND as a member of their conference. The few years Don Nehlan teams played ND, Nehlan was able to use that as a trump card to lure prospective recruits.
Consider the following, which assumes the Big East & PA St reach an accord:
Big 10 "West"
IA
IA St or MO (MO was suggested in another thread.)
MN
ND
Purdue
WIBig 10 "East"
IL
IN
MI
MI St
NW
OSUThe strength of schedule is about equal on each side. In a 12 game schedule, each team has to play all 5 on their side & 3 from the other. ND could still maintain its rivalry with MI, or not, and (depending upon the choice) would have 3 or 4 open slots for the likes of Air Force, FSU, GA Tech, Miami, Navy, TX, UCLA, USC (among others), to round out their schedule. It makes sense geographically and it gives the Big 10 a boost money market wise.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on July 27, 2007 12:23 PM — 24.218.208.81 — link — abuse?
Zac:
What about combining the Big East with the Big 10. It would become The Super Conglomerate Conference. Teams could always be tossed out if the league needs to be honed down a bit.
Back to the Big East question, I still think UMASS is a diamond in the rough. I'd pick them over the ECU.
If that doesn't suit you, I have some other brainstorms...how about Delaware Blue Hens? There's also New Hampshire. Both are similar to UMASS. They are all up and comers with large student bodies.
-CCT
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on July 27, 2007 4:23 PM — 24.218.208.81 — link — abuse?
No disrespect to Marshall, but let's forget about inviting them. We don't need any Big East riots like they have in Europe over soccer. Let's grab Maryland instead.
Rutgers sticks by WVU, the way it should be.
Zac said:
posted on July 27, 2007 7:05 PM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
Ryan, I don't know that the Big East wants Temple back. Though they exist as an option, and the Philly market is good, the school has a terrible commitment to the football team. They treat the BB team much, much better and can get fans to the games; not so with football. And, I don't know why that is.
Getting back to UMass, I wasn't ruling them out. I'm just saying the transition from Div-2 to Div-1 isn't always easy. At least UMass has a strong TV market population base. This is not so with NH, ME, or VT; good size schools, weak TV market. As for Marshall, I've said it before; WVU would likely block their entry.
cardman steve said:
posted on July 27, 2007 7:32 PM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
is the big 10 goes cherry picking,i hope they pick louisville. the big east needs to expand,but no to ecu,marshall and smu,tcu and houston as well. no cen fla also. i don,t think c-usa is better than the mac as well. reading these different blogs are about this ,some of you are on something beyound drugs. miami of ohio,i like. umass,thumbs up. if pitt bolts to the big 10 will not hurt and ru as well,but louisville could kill the big east along with w va. the big 10 is going to pluck someone from the big east and hope the big east will expand and look at markets with location in mind. it,s easy to pluck cincy,w va,louisville,the orangemen,rutgers and pitt to join the big 10 because of location. but yet,i hear smu,ecu,houston,tcu,central fl to join the big east. i rather have s miss,memphis any of the mac schools from ohio and no to marshall. i rather have n. ill than marshall. i hope the big east wakes up and do something correct like they did when the acc came cherry picking and pick some schools close to other schools with good markets and they have to go out a little atleast take s miss and memphis. these 2 schools should have been taken when the acc came calling instead of taking that basketball team from miller low life city and depaul. the big east would have had a solid football conf. with 10 teams with a bowl game in hand as well. all i hear is death program smu,once power houston and to far away tcu along with back to earth marshall with no market. i could see umass football catching up with ecu quickly. those mac schools from ohio smell better than any of them.
cardman steve said:
posted on July 29, 2007 10:54 AM — 74.131.212.190 — link — abuse?
i like the ideal of getting bc back. i don,t know about va tech or miami. i like your opinion Usfjim. i still think the big east messed up by taking depaul and the basketball team from miller low life city. should have taken s miss and memphis with the liberty bowl as well.
+TBaker said:
posted on July 29, 2007 6:56 PM — 71.0.27.52 — link — abuse?
I can't believe I just found this thread today.
IRISH JT., MR. MCATEER, and SHIGUY, my thoughts: I live in NC and college sports are of course crazy huge here...and not just hoops. NC is a big part of the East Coast (Raleigh, Charlotte) and any conference representing the East should have an NC team...for that reason I like ECU. Greenville reminds me of Morgantown (without the freaking suicidal hills of course) and the fans remind me of Eers. It could get us into the Raleigh/Durham/Charlotte TV markets. And for anyone who actually wants Notre Dame in the BE, Lou's kid Skip is the ECU coach, so we can go with the 2-degrees of separation on that if it works for you. Just NO NOTRE DAME in the BE. I was in Quebec City last month, taking a tour and the French-speaking tour guide was asked by a person on our tour what the words "Notre Dame" actually mean and of course I blurted out "over rated" and judging by the favorable response of the group I'd say I'm right. PS loved watching the draft...Brady Quinn shaking in his loafers for a LOOOOOONG time...ah, just another reason to hate the Browns (like I needed any more).Zac said:
posted on July 31, 2007 12:01 AM — 76.85.143.185 — link — abuse?
SECFan, without a doubt starting a football team from scratch is no small task, and carries a heavy price tag. On the other hand, look at what S FL has done in 9 years.
I don't think the answer is for the Big East to get rid of anyone. I think the answer is for all of college football to petition the NCAA to lower the requirement of 12 teams to 10 teams before a conference can have that "lucrative" championship game. That was a big reason for the ACC offering memberships to BC, Miami, & Syracuse, before politics forced the ACC to take VA Tech in lieu of Syracuse. If that happened, instead of the Big 10 needing to romance ND, they could drop PA St & be the conference they've always been. The ACC could give back 2 of the 3 schools acquired from the B.E. Then, the B.E. could be split into 2 sub-conferences: a BB side & and All Sports Side (See the last few lines & paragraphs of Post#64.) It's the only way I can think of for them to pull it off.
EER10 said:
posted on July 31, 2007 10:12 AM — 129.71.238.252 — link — abuse?
TBaker: WVU wants ECU in the Big East. WVU has and will continue to lobby for them again. The problem a couple years ago was that the basketball program was a mess, but that the football program was getting back on track. ECU is WVU's little brother. ECU will be in the Big East at some point in the future.
TBaker said:
posted on July 31, 2007 4:20 PM — 71.0.27.52 — link — abuse?
EER10: I look forward to traveling to Greenville to watch a true conference match up sporting my best WVU gear...and getting my a** kicked in the parking lot for it, I'm sure. I'm down with Zac's last post on the conference size. On the topic of size, sorry, IrishJT, size DOES matter.
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pip said:
posted on July 17, 2007 12:21 PM — 70.245.212.174 — link — abuse?Notre Dame has a long tradition of respect.. but I feel the time has come that if they wish to continue to receive that respect.. they should join a conference... Now looks like the perfect time... but I'm not holding my breath either.