December 22, 2007
Substantial suspensions coming for Florida State
What started out as an athletic department investigation into academic fraud mainly outside of the Florida State football team now looks likely to name twelve or more current Seminole football players.
The investigation - which was initially reported to the NCAA in September - found that twenty-three FSU athletes were given improper assistance by two former academic tutors, who have since been dismissed.
FSU's investigation found that a tutor set up one athlete -- who was not enrolled in the class -- to take an online test for another athlete and while the tutor provided the answers.
The investigation then found the learning specialist also typed papers for five students who apparently didn't qualify for that service, and a tutor provided answers or other unethical assistance to 23 students for online tests. The testing involved a single course, which was not identified.
While this was shocking news to the FSU administration, it was widely known that this class had tutors that would cheat for athletes.
"Some students from the 2007 semester indicated that it was common knowledge among the student athletes that the tutor would help with the exams in the class," the report said.The learning specialist and tutor resigned. They are not named in the report.
The tutor confirmed in an interview with the school's auditors that he had been assisting students with answers for the online exams since the fall of 2006, according to the report.
"Student testimony as well as the students' grades indicated the amount of assistance the tutor provided escalated from fall 2006 through his resignation during the summer semester 2007," the report stated.
The auditors also found the learning specialist had failed to direct athletes with disabilities to Florida State's Student Disability Resource Center where they could have received legitimate assistance.
While FSU's initial inquiries did not implicate the football team, it is now clear that many players who took the music history class were involved as well.
I have heard (from people with solid connections to FSU) that twelve or more football players have been implicated, that many of them are starters, and that they will be suspended for four games.
For the sake of completeness, however, ESPN is reporting that it may be twenty or more players.
Florida State officials are expected to announce the results of the investigation this week. The source said university officials determined Monday night the exact number of football players who will be suspended. The university isn't expected to immediately reveal the identities of the student-athletes involved in the alleged cheating.
"If the players fight the suspensions, they'll risk losing all of their eligibility," a source with knowledge of the situation said Tuesday morning.
Florida State has been holding many players out of bowl game practice, presumably because they are among the players who will be suspended.
The Seminoles are preparing to shuffle the depth chart to cover the suspended players, but FSU OC Jimbo Fisher has said that he definitely will not put redshirted players into the Music City Bowl to cover the suspended players.
An announcement is expected from FSU later today or tomorrow.
FSU has said that it will not announce the suspensions nor specifically name the players involved, as it may be a violation of their privacy if they are specifically linked to these allegations, versus a standard "academic suspension". Regardless, the players will not play in the bowl games as well as three games next season, for those who have eligibility remaining.
In a seemingly related move, long-time senior associate athletics director Kim Record tendered her resignation yesterday. Her resignation follows the dismissal of FSU AD Dave Hart and the departures of associate ADs Charlie Carr and Pam Overton since word of the academic scandal first broke in late September.
Update
FSU released a brief statement from Coach Bowden regarding the suspensions....
Florida State University announced today that as many as 25 members of the Seminole football team will not participate in the Music City Bowl.
"Some of our players will not travel with us to the bowl game," said head coach Bobby Bowden. "We have some players not traveling for one reason and some for another, including those who are ineligible for the bowl because of academic issues. We can not be more specific than that at this time."
----------
UPDATE
Here's an extrapolation based on the reports from the Tallahassee Democrat and others....
23 football players will be suspended. Of those, 11 players have "starting experience" (which I am taking to mean are starters or have started during their career). Three players are on the second/third string and seven who have not played this season (walkons? redshirts? scout team?). Two other players were suspended already in September.
Here's a brief list of the some significant FSU players who were not involved and are not suspended:
QB Drew Weatherford, RB/WR Preston Parker, RB Antone Smith, WR Greg Carr LB Geno Hayes and LB Derek Nicholson.
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UPDATE
Florida State has released its travel roster for the Music City Bowl. The most interesting point - given the current investigation - is who isn't making the trip to the bowl game.
The following Florida State Seminoles will not travel with the team because of injury, violations of team rules, or involvement with the current academic scandal, although the exact reasons for each players status has not been disclosed.
FSU Associate Athletic Director Rob Wilson:
"We are releasing our travel roster for the Music City Bowl as we do prior to all road games. It is very important that the media make clear that those missing the bowl trip are not included because of either injury or for a violation of team policy. We can not, due to student records laws, provide more specific information with respect to each student-athlete. It would be irresponsible to imply or state that any or all of the student-athletes will miss the trip for one particular reason."
In total, thirty-six players, including 15 starters & part-time starters (noted below in bold) will not play in the Seminoles' bowl game.
Ball, Marcus | SO | LB |
Ball, Russell | R-SO | RB |
Brinson, Bernard | FR | CB |
Browning, Phillip | R-SO | OT |
Bryant, J.R. | SR | CB |
Charles, Eli | R-SO | DE |
Claude, Jacky | SR | OG |
Cox, Randall | R-SO | OG |
Davis, Brandon | R-FR | C |
Ford, Marcus | R-SR | OL |
Gallon, Rodney | R-JR | LB |
Goodman, Richard | JR | WR |
Graham, Charlie | R-SO | TE |
Graves, Tyler | R-FR | TE |
Griffin, Paul | R-JR | DT |
Guion, Letroy | JR | DT |
Kelly, Anthony | R-SR | LB |
Lee, Xavier | R-JR | QB |
McKnight, John | SR | P |
McNeil, Kevin | SO | DE |
Mincey, Justin | SO | DT |
Moffett, Neefy | JR | DE |
Piurowski, Caz | SO | TE |
Robinson, Patrick | SO | CB |
Rose, Daron | SO | OL |
Seay, Antoine | SO | DE |
Shaw, Joslin | R-SR | WR |
Sims, Marcus | SO | FB |
Stanley, Jacob | FR | OT |
Surratt, Joe | SR | FB |
Thacker, Budd | SO | DT |
Thompson, Jeremiah | R-SO | DS |
Watson, Dekoda | SO | LB |
White, Antonio | R-SR | FB |
Yarborough, Craig | FR | DE |
Comments:
kershawdw said:
posted on December 18, 2007 12:38 PM — 24.136.33.6 — link — abuse?
Okay being a die hard Cane fan I truly would like to pile on FSU but there is no way I could do so without looking like a complete hypocrite. Fact is this goes on at EVERY school, yeah I said it EVERY school. It doesn't make it right but it happens. I mean lets get real here its an online quiz, what do you think is going to happen. Hell this happens at my school all the time, with NON athletes. If the NCAA was soo concerned about cheating then they would make a rule disallowing online quizzes for student athletes. But tutors writing papers or doing work for the athletes is the little dark secret no University wants to be made public, so if you think it doesn't happen at your school your naive.
posted on December 18, 2007 1:06 PM — link — abuse?Kevin Donahue
said:
@kershawdw - I agree. This sort of thing happens at most if not all universities; however, this is PRETTY WIDE SPREAD. FSU is going to get some credit from the NCAA for finding it, self-reporting, and letting go of several AD higher-ups.
I can't even begin to predict what the NCAA punishments will be, but my best guess would be a serious loss of scholarships - as this is the NCAA's first chance to make an example out of someone with online class/testing.
gatorhippy
posted on December 18, 2007 1:13 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
K-Hue (#5):
Yeah...
The sad thing is it will possibly end up affecting the athletic department as a whole rather than the football program solely...
Depending on the severity and the breadth of the of the violations, it could also involve forfeitures and sanctions on post season appearances in numerous sports...
Even with my distatse for all things FSU, I see this a bad thing and feel deeply saddened that alot of these kids were possibly misled into their current situations...
Tomcat said:
posted on December 18, 2007 1:27 PM — 68.93.140.127 — link — abuse?
@2 kershdw I have to agree.On Line Exams or passing on-line classes are really kind of a joke anyway.Thats what amounts to an open book test anyway.I took a class one time on line that had multipile choice questions at the end of each chapter, if you were to fail one segment for some reason, you could simply type in different combinations of answers until you passed, allowing you to advance to the next segment.
On line classes are convenient and cost effective and serve their purpose for the most part.They are just not as effective as the hands on classroom instuction and there's no interaction between teacher and student.
If theres a way to cheat folks are going to figure it out anyway. I recently heard about some students photoing exams on cell phones, unethical practices continue and todays techknowlegy helps those cheaters earn credits without actually learning the material.
BTW I'm sure this kinda stuff happens everywhere.
Adios TomcatRamblin' Gator said:
posted on December 18, 2007 2:39 PM — 67.97.209.36 — link — abuse?
Never thought I would find myself expressing THIS feeling, but I actually feel sorry for FSU and its fans now. It's been a rough season and will get worse before it gets better.
Kevin, I agree with your idea that FSU taking proactive steps - including firing senior athletic department officials - will help them in terms of upcoming judgements coming from the NCAA. The bad news is that the NCAA seems to lack a sense of proportion in these matters. I remember many years ago when Jim Wacker (sp?) was head coach at TCU and found violations, self-reported and self-punished. The NCAA came down hard on TCU anyway.
This was completely unfair (IMO) and a bad idea. Does the NCAA REALLY want to discourage teams from self-reporting?
gatorhippy
posted on December 18, 2007 3:17 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
FSU has said that it will not announce the suspensions nor specifically name the players involved, as it may be a violation of their privacy if they are specifically linked to these allegations, versus a standard "academic suspension"...
Ummm...
Won't we all find out anyway while they prep for the bowl game or at the latest when they take the field in Memphis?
posted on December 18, 2007 5:01 PM — link — abuse? said:
FSU released a brief statement from Coach Bowden regarding the suspensions....
Florida State University announced today that as many as 25 members of the Seminole football team will not participate in the Music City Bowl.
"Some of our players will not travel with us to the bowl game," said head coach Bobby Bowden. "We have some players not traveling for one reason and some for another, including those who are ineligible for the bowl because of academic issues. We can not be more specific than that at this time."Hricane23 said:
posted on December 18, 2007 5:32 PM — 170.135.241.46 — link — abuse?
TE,
"Hricane" came about because there's so many "Hurricane"s already on various e-mail and internet sites that I would've been "Hurricane9239", or something. "23" comes from a past football number, among other sports. Additionally, I'm only allowed 7 letters on my vanity tags, so... Hricane it is. Fact is, you knew what it was about.
So, Tiger Educated, Tight End, Talipes Equinovarus, Temporal Epilepsy, or whatever, until you start posting under your real name, I'm going to go by "Hricane23".
TE
posted on December 18, 2007 5:56 PM — 204.68.245.11 — link — abuse? said:
Kevin shortened my screen name to TE...It's also my abbreviation on my home site. What's your excuse again?
Oh, the fact is, its still misspelled...Don't get your Hanes Her Ways in a twist...Lighten up, Francis...It's an internet message board...
Hricane23 said:
posted on December 18, 2007 6:01 PM — 170.135.241.46 — link — abuse?
TE,
First, I prefer Victoria's Secret. I wouldn't be caught dead in Hanes Her Way's.
Second, now that we know my real name, i.e. Francis, when are we going to find out yours?
Third, I'm glad that you finally verified what the rest of us already suspected... that Kevin is yo' daddy.
Tomcat said:
posted on December 18, 2007 7:16 PM — 68.93.140.127 — link — abuse?
@ #13 good post
What happened TE bit off more than you can chew?
#19 , #18 Glad you chimed in on TE
BTW Did ever help that other guy find a replacement for a Pinto or was it a Vega?
#15 That really kinda sux for FSU kinda hard to feild a team losing a few guys, but 20 something.
Go Buckeyes
Gigem-Aggies1st_and_NOLE
posted on December 18, 2007 7:57 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
I hope we get what we deserve. This is embarrassing and pathetic.
If the NCAA doesn't make it a rule, Florida State should make it their own rule to not allow athletes to take online classes.
There's no excuse for this and I'm embarrassed this happened.
It may happen at every school on the planet but that doesn't make it right or excuse it. Florida State should be above "what everyone else does."
Tomcat said:
posted on December 19, 2007 9:00 AM — 69.148.199.64 — link — abuse?
22 GH Thanks for the info, so in other words, they needed to be taught how to cheat?
Proper cheating methods 101 new on-line course.
contact your counsler, tutors are available.
The whole situation is really sad for FSU
Playing KY would be tough anyway and now with these problems beating the Wildcats although not impossible , makes highly unlikely an understatement. Bad deal all the way around.
Hookem-Horns
posted on December 19, 2007 9:11 AM — link — abuse? said:
@Gatorhippy - GP thinks so? The same GP that accused Bowden of a racial slur? The same GP that drug Hayes through the mud following the UF/FSU game, even though the UF AD defended him?
I like Ryan. I really do. A lot of the stuff he writes is dead-on. But I starting to think he has a thing for Hayes.
Dozens and dozens of FSU athletes screwed up big time here. Unless someone wants to actually go on the record firsthand, I'm content to damn the whole lot of them.
Trying to pin this on Hayes and Hayes alone is... well, that's just his thing, I guess.
gatorhippy
posted on December 19, 2007 9:17 AM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
K-Hue (#26):
Ummm...
No offense, but "people that live in glass houses", Kev...
Remember your rumor mill post about Jon Demps and Weed...
CFB blogging ain't exactly professional journalism...
However, I probably should have phrased that differently...
If you click on my link you see that Fergs actually got his info from Gatorcountry...
You have to admit though...
Hayes is a pretty easy target...
Gatorpilot said:
posted on December 19, 2007 11:07 AM — 71.42.27.135 — link — abuse?
I like you too, Kevin. And for what it's worth, I made it clear that it was just a rumor on my site.
I don't think I have a thing for Geno Hayes? He was the most noteworthy and interesting subject in the Gators-vs.-Noles game this year. Surely the game itself wasn't interesting to anyone other than Gator fans.
Mayb one has to be a Gator to truly understand the love we have for our boy Timmy around here. When Geno Hayes threatened him, it was like the neighborhood bully threatening your little brother. You pretty much want to go beat the hell out of him. So hopefully that explains any "issues" I have with Geno, who is most definitely my least favorite 'Nole. Then again, I've never much cared for trash-talking players whose bodies can't cash the checks they write with their mouths, and that sums up Geno perfectly.
Keep up the great work Kev...
gatorhippy
posted on December 19, 2007 1:32 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
From the Orlando Sentinel
"Bowden, meanwhile, rushed past a group of reporters who waited for him outside an on-campus event. The coach said he was in a hurry to get to football practice, but football practice had ended approximately an hour earlier"...
Avoidance or early signs of demetia?
You make the call...
posted on December 19, 2007 1:48 PM — link — abuse? said:
Update: Here's an extrapolation based on the reports from the Tallahassee Democrat and others....
23 football players will be suspended. Of those, 11 players have "starting experience" (which I am taking to mean are starters or have started during their career). Three players are on the second/third string and seven who have not played this season (walkons? redshirts? scout team?). Two other players were suspended already in September.
Here's a brief list of the some significant FSU players who were not involved and are not suspended:
QB Drew Weatherford, RB/WR Preston Parker, RB Antone Smith, WR Greg Carr LB Geno Hayes and LB Derek Nicholson.
Hricane23 said:
posted on December 19, 2007 2:17 PM — 170.135.241.46 — link — abuse?
I can never understand why anyone risks so much for walk-ons, scout teamers, & others that don't see the playing field. If I were a Coach, or an AD, I'd make sure my people only cheated for starters. And if they lost, no cheating. My rules would be simple. Coffee is for closers. Cheating is for winners.
JZNole
posted on December 19, 2007 2:52 PM — 12.177.80.3 — link — abuse? said:
I just noticed this was all from a Music History class. I took that class while I was at FSU (over 10 yrs ago, so it wasn't online) but it was taught by Tommy Wright, the write of the FSU fight song, that was one of the easiest classes I ever took. Why the hell would these idiots even need to cheat???? UGHHHHHHHHH
Ramblin' Gator said:
posted on December 20, 2007 7:29 PM — 74.185.133.40 — link — abuse?
I'm starting to sense a complete meltdown in Tallahassee.
The AP is reporting that Bowden isn't concerned about having to vacate any victories from this season because they didn't "knowingly" put any ineligible players on the field. Bowden is really struggling to maintain that two victory career lead over Paterno.
gatorhippy
posted on December 20, 2007 8:35 PM — 70.121.110.84 — link — abuse? said:
RG (#40):
Yeah, the NCAA isn't going to care whether FSU played those kids "knowingly" or not...
Stoops didn't know those kids received payment for no work either...
The bigger problem being is that if the class was vacated did those in question still complete enough credit hours to be eligible without it...
I'm thinking "no"...
posted on December 20, 2007 10:00 PM — link — abuse? said:
One of the difficult questions here is what will the NCAA do in response, because of a) the NCAA's all-over-the-map track record, and b) no one really knows the extent of this until the investigation is wrapped.
I guess you can read Bowden's comments a couple of different ways, but I I think it is fair to say that the NCAA has gone a lot of different directions regarding vacating wins.
And, from my standpoint, I'd be anxious to vacate those losses! ;)
Jon said:
posted on December 20, 2007 10:22 PM — 68.84.19.20 — link — abuse?
I'm starting to sense a complete meltdown in Tallahassee.
As some one who has lived in Tallahassee all their life, your "sense" = b.s.
I'm sure no one is going to want to hear this...and I'm sincerely sorry if I ruin your (Gator fans) wet dreams.... but the reality is (whether you want to admit it or not) it is not that big of a deal. No one in Tallahassee gives a rats ass. You can't control what grown men do with themselves and you damn sure aren't going to stop idiot college kids from cheating in classes (especially online classes).
I suspect the NCAA will poke their heads in, realize that no one associated with the team had anything to do with this and nothing will become of it. Then the rest of the sheep (myself included) will herd to the next story, so we can vicariously come all over ourselves when the next train wreck happens.
Before you judge the "severity" of this situation, take a step back and look at yourself in the mirror. Are you coming to logical conclusions or are you satisfying your carnal urge to see someone crash and burn.
gatorhippy
posted on December 20, 2007 10:38 PM — 70.121.110.84 — link — abuse? said:
K-Hue (#42):
That NCAA press release I sent you had a pretty ominous tone to it even while acknowledging that Wetherell was conducting a fairly thorough investigation...
Again, this isn't something that can be claimed to be out of the reach of institutional control such as a player arrest or booster activity...
Nor is it seeming to be an isolated incident within just the football program...
This is a university employee openly and actively enabling student athletes to misrepresent their academic eligibility across the board in FSU sports...
Fully within institutional control, responsibility and accountability...
The self imposed suspensions by the university are more than likely just the start to this though it could be a end of spring to almost a year before the NCAA brings final ruling on this...
OU-Ron
posted on December 20, 2007 10:39 PM — 68.12.216.68 — link — abuse? said:
Jon, the NCAA poked their heads in to the Sooners team and found out that no Coaches or team members had anything to do with that dum ass QB taking money that he didn't work for, but that didn't stop the NCAA from vacating the win's. They may not vacate FSU's win's but don't be surprised if they do....
Tom Blogical
posted on December 20, 2007 11:30 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
hrposon (#47):
You're quite the comedian.
Ramblin' Gator said:
posted on December 21, 2007 8:20 AM — 74.185.133.40 — link — abuse?
#43: Jon sez (quoted text)...
"As some one who has lived in Tallahassee all their life, your "sense" = b.s."
Personally, I've lived all over the US and Europe in many different cities, so it was with some experience I can assert Jon = Yokel = Homer.
"...it is not that big of a deal. No one in Tallahassee gives a rats ass."
Factoid: the NCAA isn't headquartered in Tallahassee, so you may think it's not a big deal, but you aren't in control of deciding FSU's fate.
"You can't control what grown men do with themselves."
Excellent point! This is what the NCAA calls a "lack of institutional control" which is considered grounds for the NCAA's death penalty. Thus, my comment about "complete meltdown" appears to be even more appropriate now.
AdRock said:
posted on December 21, 2007 11:40 AM — 65.15.92.46 — link — abuse?
1. I took the class as well (18 years ago or so). I wasn't a stellar a student and had difficluty getting to class as I worked in a college bar until the wee hours of the morning (anyone remember the Phyrst?). I think I earned a 'B'. I can't imagine the class is much different; there was no need to cheat.
2. I am not an attorney and I know the NCAA doesn't use legal precedents to make their decisions. But, I run a company and I (the company) am responsible for my employee's actions (even if I am not aware of them) in the world of civil litigation. Unfortunately, I learned this the hard way. I imagine the NCAA views "insitutional control" the same way. These people were FSU employees...
3. I once heard that Tommy Wright not only wrote the fight song, but it was his profile used for the orginal drawing of the FSU emblem. I don't know if that is just "rumor" or "on the record."
hrposon said:
posted on December 21, 2007 8:49 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
Tom B @ 48 - Ohio State leads a charmed life.
AD Andy Geiger covered up the O'Brein and Clarett scandals and then "retired". Then NCAA president Myles Brand and former Indiana University president, let it slide.
The FSU problem doesn't appear to be as serious. Time will tell.
posted on December 22, 2007 12:33 PM — link — abuse? said:
Florida State has released its travel roster for the Music City Bowl. The most interesting point - given the current investigation - is who isn't making the trip to the bowl game.
The following Florida State Seminoles will not travel with the team because of injury, violations of team rules, or involvement with the current academic scandal, although the exact reasons for each players status has not been disclosed.
FSU Associate Athletic Director Rob Wilson:
"We are releasing our travel roster for the Music City Bowl as we do prior to all road games. It is very important that the media make clear that those missing the bowl trip are not included because of either injury or for a violation of team policy. We can not, due to student records laws, provide more specific information with respect to each student-athlete. It would be irresponsible to imply or state that any or all of the student-athletes will miss the trip for one particular reason."
In total, 15 starters (and part-time starters) noted below in bold will not play in the Seminoles' bowl game.
Zac said:
posted on December 22, 2007 1:43 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
I've seen this all before. I've even seen it in the work place. That doesn't make FSU's condition right, only all too common. Honesty, integrity, trust, to some none of it means as much today as it used to. And who suffers? Who pays? The entire athletic department, its players, and the fans.
That's where they NCAA falls short, or more accurately, goes over-board. They think they're GOD. They're not, obviously, but no one has the sack to tell them. They learn of infractions, and they lower the boom; they take no prisoners; all must be destroyed.
My opinion: There certainly should be an investigation. The whole truth in a given matter should be revealed. Once you have a list of all involved, then it should be those on the list who should be disciplined, or have sanctions against them, not the entire team, department, or its school.
Depending upon the severity of the infraction and the impact it actually had, in my opinion, the following should done:
AD's/Coaches/Coaching Staff - have their pay docked or reduced, be demoted, suspended, or fired.
Professors, Asst Prof's, Grad Asst's - ibid, in addition to possible loss of grants, scholarships, or other aid.
Players - suspended from games, loss of a year's eligibility, loss of scholarship for 1 year, made to transfer to another school (loss of a year of eligibility and scholarship for the 1st year still apply)
The rest of the team carries on, which is what it looks like FSU is doing with their football team. Take a lesson, NCAA; take a lesson.
Tom Blogical
posted on December 22, 2007 1:48 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
"AD Andy Geiger covered up the O'Brein and Clarett scandals and then "retired"."
Now you're just being silly. Geiger reported both incidents to the NCAA and we all know exactly what happened in each incident. Clarett was kicked off the team and expelled, and O'Brien was fired. And O'Brien is still getting his money--even though he knowingly screwed up, despite his intentions.
Since you're apparently the last person on earth that isn't aware of what happened in either incident, just Google whatever you want to know. And since Geiger reported each issue in detail to the NCAA, breaking each story himself, you're delusional to think he "covered them up". I guess that's what hate does. It obliterates facts.
Tom Blogical
posted on December 22, 2007 2:00 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
hrposon (#53):
And another thing. Both Clarett and O'Brien admitted they lied during each investigation. Where are Clarett and O'Brien now? In their rightful place. Clarett is in jail and O'Brien won't see a coaching job for quite some time.
gatorhippy
posted on December 22, 2007 3:44 PM — 70.121.110.84 — link — abuse? said:
K-Hue (#55):
While football is a team sport, I don't think you punish the entire team for the actions of a few...
Out of curiosity, Kev...
Then would you NOT say that sanctions against FSU athletics as a whole would be appropriate and/or fair if handed down by the NCAA when all the dust settles on this?
posted on December 22, 2007 5:01 PM — link — abuse? said:
@gatorhippy - If sanctions come down, yes - they should be against the school. I think yanking some scholarship is the right penalty in this case. It hurts the team, obviously, but it is not an unjust punishment, in the since that the seniors (for example) have an opportunity taken away from them.
gatorhippy
posted on December 22, 2007 7:59 PM — 70.121.110.84 — link — abuse? said:
K-Hue (#61):
Sounds reasonable...
With the exception of establishing what athletes contributed to wins if they were ineligible due to the university vacating this class...
If in fact, they would have been on the short side of credits without the class, FSU would seem to left with no choice but to forfeit any athletic contest in which an ineligible athlete participated...
Which looking at that list would seem to force FSU to drop all seven wins this season...
Ugly stuff by those that were involved and highly disrespectful to the university as a whole...
I have never been a big fan of hitting infractionists with postseason play bans and tv restrictions as it usually doesn't punish those that were actually involved in the trangressions and hurts opponents in their TV revenue line of their departmental budget wallets...
Again, the football team seems to be the tip of the iceberg here and at this point seems to be the focus fo this entire scandal...
I'm interested in seeing exactly how many are involved in other sports...
hrposon said:
posted on December 22, 2007 10:09 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@ 58 Tom B - Did the teaching assistant lie?
July 12, 2003 — The New York Times quotes a teaching assistant at Ohio State who says Clarett received "preferential treatment." She says he walked out of a midterm exam but ended up passing the class after the professor gave him an oral exam.
That's a lack of institutional control. Clarett was threatening to sue tOSU. They had to turn him in.
Let's say Myles Brand really looked for more, tOSU could have been banned from TV for a year or two. Guess what, no Big 10 Network...Buckeye 4 Ever said:
posted on December 22, 2007 11:46 PM — 65.60.236.132 — link — abuse?
hrposon (@64),
Concerning Myles Brand & the NCAA, here's a quote from the AP "The NCAA said, they tried numerous times to interview Maurice Clarett about accusations he made against Ohio State’s football program, but the former Buckeyes running back never responded to its requests."
It appears Maurice must not have been very truthful, and did not want to do a face to face with the NCAA.
Tom Blogical
posted on December 22, 2007 11:48 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
hrposon (#64):
I thought this was an FSU thread? Take your OSU cheap shots elsewhere.
Did the teaching assistant lie?
I see you're into rehashing and twisting old news. Your question begs the following question, which is, did the associate professor lie? Which person are you going to believe? Classic "he said/she said" situation, in this case, a "she said/she said" with an associate professor up against a teaching assistant. With a situation like that, you always have to look at the credibility and believability of the people involved.
"But associate professor Paulette Pierce said Clarett did not receive preferential treatment in her class. She said she has given oral exams in other classes to students who are not athletes."
The NCAA didn't seem to have any issue with OSU's findings into the investigation, which concluded there wasn't sufficient evidence for academic misconduct. OSU gave them its findings, and the NCAA did nothing further. All by the book. You can read into that what you wish, but if you think the Big 10 Network wouldn't have launched without OSU being on it, then you're insane.
I find it very interesting that the teaching assistant had an questionable work history with OSU, and didn't want to talk to OSU officials, but was willing to speak to NCAA officials about it. The fact that the NCAA found her story lacked credibility speaks volumes.
The truth is, I don't know any of these people, and I'm not naive enough to believe that the university and associate professor aren't going to cover their arses as much as they can. However, I'm not going to be completely cynical like you, and run around shouting conspiracy theories, either. And it's obvious to me you know nothing about the facts and simply want to pile on whenever you can.
You can believe what you want, but the fact is, OSU has already had their rectal exam, and the NCAA was satisfied. If you don't like what the NCAA decided to do, take it up with them. 25 players getting in trouble don't even compare to 1, by the way.
Now then, this thread is about Florida State and their current troubles, not delirious accusations and allegations about Ohio State based on a known felon and liar. Especially when the case is closed. So--this is the last I'm talking about OSU here (on this thread). If you want to spout off more of your nutty theories, I'll open a thread about it on my blog, or better yet, you can start your own blog and go to town there.
Unfortunately for FSU and its fans, there is proof of widespread academic misconduct. I feel very badly for FSU fans, BTW.
Bevo Boy said:
posted on December 23, 2007 12:08 AM — 207.200.116.5 — link — abuse?
So this can't be considered 100% off-topic: boo Seminoles. Stupid move.
Now, about OSU (not going to make fun of them or question anything about the clarett situation), were any of you guys at the UF vs. OSU basketball game? I was there and it was a great atmosphere. I didn't think OSU fans would be that into basketball until football season was over. I have the utmost respect for Billy D, so I was rooting for the Gators (not to mention my uncle is the stock broker for one of the Gator coaches, Lewis Preston, but my aunt knows Thad Matta because she taught his son last year and got to know both him and some of the players). I think the Buckeyes have a bright future ahead of them in both football and basketball, and hope I can go to some games in the future.
Buckeye 4 Ever said:
posted on December 23, 2007 1:21 AM — 65.60.236.132 — link — abuse?
Bevo Boy (#67),
Living 20 minutes from campus in one of the burbs, this is a game I would have loved to attended this year, but due to family obligations was unable too.
Actually, had a pair of tickets for the women’s basketball game (Nebraska vs. OSU) at noon, 4 hours before the Florida vs. OSU men’s game.
We will be catching a few after the 1st of the year, during the Big Ten season play.
I agree with your thoughts concerning both the atmosphere and the directions of the basketball and football programs.
Reminds me of the 60’s & early/mid 70’s, when both were very successful.
Many forget, that during the 60’s Ohio State’s men’s basketball team coached by the late Fred Taylor, went to 4 final fours (1960, 61, 62 & 68). Advancing to the championship game in 60, 61 & 62, but only winning the national championship in 1960.
With such great players as John Havlicek, Jerry Lucas, Mel Nowell, Larry Siegfried along with a sub named Bobby Knight.
Losing to Cincinnati in 1961 & 62, Cincinnati had a great player themselves, by the name of Oscar Robinson “The Big O”.
hrposon said:
posted on December 23, 2007 2:26 AM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@66 Tom B - The associate professor Paulette Pierce is the conspirator and teaching assistant Norma McGill is the one that studied and took her tests. She knew that Clarett shouldn't be able to walk out of the midterm and still pass.
Who would a reasonable person believe?
The bottom line is that the Big 10 has nothing to fear of NCAA president and former Indiana president Myles Brand. Will he be consistent in dealing with FSU?
Here's the article...
A teaching assistant in an African-American and African studies class, Norma McGill, told the New York Times that Clarett had received preferential treatment.
Clarett walked out of a midterm exam, never retaking the written test, but was allowed to take an easier oral midterm exam, and then an oral final exam, which was administered by the professor, Paulette Pierce. Clarett was the only one of 80 students in the class to receive such a benefit. Pierce said she has given oral exams to other students.
As far as your 1 incident versus 25 point, if you you don't look for #2, you'll never find #25.
I think we are all looking for equal treatment for all schools, whether it be it on the field or off the field.
Tom Blogical
posted on December 23, 2007 9:43 AM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
hrposon (#71):
Apparently, you didn't bother to read my entire comment. It should be obvious from it that I'm well acquainted with all the details involved in the Clarett case, and it should be obvious who it is that I believe. A reasonable person would be able to do that. I recommend you carefully re-read it.
Didn't look for more than 1 incident? OSU followed procedure and investigated the allegations. The person heading the OSU investigation and president of OSU, Karen Holbrook, detested the athletic department and hates the idea of athletics in general. I'm certain she made sure there were no stones left unturned. I also find it interesting that only 1 uncooperative TA (with a history of erratic behavior and work-related issues) reported the so-called preferential treatment issue, but nobody else came forward about it. For that particular class, nor any other classes he was taking.
Once again, you spout blubbering conspiracy theories (Myles Brand) and seem to have a sketchy idea of what went on and don't seem to have a grasp of what I said. Including how the NCAA runs investigations and metes out punishment.
In both cases, each school came forward and volunteered their violations (or the potential violations, depending on the case you're looking at) to the NCAA. They're either defined as secondary or major violations. The NCAA was not informed of either by third parties--a key determinant on how tough the NCAA is going to be. Other determinants is the number of repeat violations in a 5-year period, and whether the university issued sanctions and corrections themselves and how tough they were. Once an investigation turns out a finding of a major violation, and after any hearing before the final appeals board, then Bylaw Article 19.6.2 is followed.
A reasonable person would know that.
In the OSU case, the OSU research committee determined Clarett didn't receive preferential treatment. The TA didn't cooperate with the research committee, but apparently did with the NCAA. Clarett didn't cooperate with anybody, including the NCAA. As a result, there was no evidence of preferential treatment found. The NCAA agreed with OSU. Therefore, there was no indication of institutional control. Once again, if you have a problem with that, take it up with the NCAA, and be sure to leave out the wild conspiracy theories, lest you experience a quick disconnect.
As for the FSU case, FSU is reporting their own employees were coordinating up to 25 kids to cheat on tests. Right off the bat, they're reporting a lack of institutional control, although as I said before, the NCAA is not going to be as tough as they could be, since FSU is reporting the violations, and not a third party. Couple that with the fact that they're punishing the parties involved.
I guess you're the "reasonable" one though, for thinking OSU is the questionable party for not having a lack of institutional control, and FSU is the believable party in comparison. The fact that you even compare the two incidents is ridiculous on it's face.
Any reasonable person would be able to see that.
I guess in your world, up is down and down is up. I've opened a thread at my blog. You can spout your wild conspiracy theories there if you want.
hrposon said:
posted on December 23, 2007 11:01 AM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@72 Tom B. - You said "In the OSU case, the OSU research committee determined Clarett didn't receive preferential treatment."
The students at Ohio State now know they can walk out of the their midterms, get a chance at an easy oral exam and still pass.
You still haven't convinced me that it wasn't a big money coverup. You can have the last word.Tom Blogical
posted on December 23, 2007 4:10 PM — 71.51.117.129 — link — abuse? said:
Tomcat (#74):
Thanks for considering me famous.
Zac said:
posted on December 23, 2007 4:18 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Post 74, cool, TC!!!
WarEagle, "My name is Francis, but you all will call me Psycho and if any of you homos touch me or any of my stuff, I'll Kill You."
Stripes, great move, "That's a fact Jack!"
AdRock (Post 52), interesting analogy, but not in the same food group.
FSU is not a "business"; it's a state government run institution of higher learning. Which namely means it's too inefficient to be successful in the business world. While FSU dose employ a "work force", ultimately, the students are the "boss"; the university works for them. Students pay the tuition; for this they get an education.
College Football is an extra curricular activity. It's not a major; it's not even a class. It's something you do before class, after class, or between classes, and on week-nights or weekends from Aug-Jan. The more time and effort you put in, the more you get out of it (usually). If you happen to be especially good at it, you get a free education.
Cheating on college course exams is a question of ethics, not a point of law. While a given school's policy can dictate expulsion, a college student will never go to jail for cheating in class.
We the fans have ultimately turned college football into the big business monster it has become. If we want to turn it into something more reasonable, we have to stop attending games, and learn to watch something else, like Opra. We won't do that, because we love the GAME too much.
That's where the NCAA comes in; to make things "FAIR". Betcha there's no corruption in that governing body... Just a thought.
Tom Blogical
posted on December 23, 2007 4:21 PM — 71.51.117.129 — link — abuse? said:
hrposon (#73):
That "preferential treatment" OSU gets from Brand and the NCAA sure helped them out with the O'Brien case. 1999 season wiped off the map along with the Final Four run, scholarships taken away, banned for a few years from postseason tourneys. Yeah. Great "preferential treatment" and money cover up. LOL!!
Next you'll tell me that Kennedy had himself assassinated and had Ruby kill Oswald to cover it up. ;-)
Tomcat said:
posted on December 23, 2007 5:29 PM — 68.93.140.127 — link — abuse?
#78 We are in agreement and I'm sure that questions concerning conspiracy theroies and unethical acts of blatant prefential treatment permiate every facet of our suspicious and doubtful modern society.
I'm sorry, you must excuse me, I live in a community were the Mayors nephew is the Police Chief and the Sherrif's wife is the dispacher.
Its the good ole boy system here as well as in Ohio and I'm sure that no institution or entity public or private anywhere in the world is free from it because its simply part of human nature and no one is ammune.
#77 Are you familiar with the Duke of Duval?
ever heard of alleged ballot box stuffing?Zac said:
posted on December 24, 2007 12:25 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
TB (Post 77), that Kennedy thing, you may have something there.
TC (Post 78), you ARE #78, at least in this thread. By the way, that ballot thing only happens in FL.
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Hricane23 said:
posted on December 18, 2007 12:21 PM — 170.135.241.46 — link — abuse?AWESOME!!!
But I do have one question...
"The investigation then found the learning specialist also typed papers for five students who apparently didn't qualify for that service"
What's it take to "qualify" for a service that allows a "learning specialist" to type your papers? A physical handicap that disallows you from typing, i.e. no arms? What about that software that allows you to talk and the dang ol' computer types what you say? How many FSU ball players don't have arms, and can't speak? And if there's even one, maybe that's why they've struggled for the last 4 years. Maybe the game has passed ol' Booby (mis-spelled?) by, if he's been recruiting no-armed guys that can't speak. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that even a no-armed, no-speaking kicker could be a liability.