September 9, 2007
Should Michigan fire Lloyd Carr?
Prior to this season, the rumors that Carr would retire in 2008 were so rampant that UM extended his contract with the admission that they were beating down retirement rumors.
But today, after two of the most embarrassing losses in Michigan football history (at home! ...to unranked teams, nonetheless!), many pundits and fans alike are openly calling for Lloyd Carr to be replaced as head coach of the Wolverines, even before the end of the season. Searches for fire lloyd carr have hit an all-time high at yahoo.com.
And, perhaps a more telling sign, Michigan was booed off its own home field for a second week in a row.
Drew Sharp of the Detroit Free-Press penned an article following the App State loss that seems just as timely today, on the heels of Michigan's blowout loss to Oregon.
The problem isn't that Michigan lost to Appalachian State.The problem is that the Wolverines have lost 10 of their last 28 games, dating to a 37-21 loss to Ohio State in Columbus on Nov. 20, 2004. [ED- Make that 11 of their last 29.]
The problem is a systemic, philosophical breakdown in which Michigan winds up tiptoeing through games rather than attacking.
It has been a rough week for the Blue because it can no longer seek the safe sanctuary of denial.
They're officially a program in coaching transition.
Lloyd Carr has earned the opportunity to leave on his own accord, but that creates a delicate environment. Failures are easily disposed -- just dump them and move on to the next chapter.
Lost amid the "Fire Lloyd" fervor, however, is that Carr hasn't failed. He successfully built upon the foundation that Bo Schembechler laid. But Michigan football has grown stale and complacent.
Carr has become a victim of time and familiarity. And he must admit to himself now -- if he hasn't already -- that 2007 is his swan song. He should realize better than anyone that a smooth transition to the next coach is crucial if Michigan hopes to build upon the foundation that Carr has laid.
Sharp goes on to nudge Carr to retire in today's paper, as well.
Carr stood defiant Saturday, saying that nothing would ever keep him down -- even the prospect of losing his job. He took a few sarcastic digs at some writers who have openly suggested that this should be his final season.But when he categorized his team's predicament with an "it is what it is" dismissal, that's tantamount to admitting that what's happening is beyond his control. And that's a concession.
His future now becomes an unavoidable distraction to his players and his assistants. The story won't go away because even if all agree that Michigan was overrated -- nobody expected it to get exposed to this degree in the season's first two games.
The Wolverines' season isn't just blown up. It has been napalmed.
Ironically, the sportsMonkey at Men of Scarlet and Gray says it's not Carr's fault.
Sure, Carr is ultimately responsible as the "head" coach, and if he can't fix the problem(s), he should be let go. But he's earned a shot at trying to fix things. The first thing he should do is fire Ron English, who is primarily responsible for these recent losses. UM's offensive schemes have been plenty good enough to win, but the preparedness & execution hasn't been there on the other side of the ball.
Of course, the Buckeye fans admit that they like the fact that Carr has become an OSU whipping boy.
So OSU fans should rally behind Carr. I have no problem admitting that this motivation primarily comes from a desire to keep the status quo in the modern "Scowler vs. the Sweatervest" era. Trust me, if they get rid of Carr, it's going to be Tressel vs. Jeff Tedford or Les Miles, and no OSU fan would want that year in and year out.
Another Michigan pundit, Mitch Albom of the Detroit Free Press, agrees that UM fans may be over-reacting, pointing out that the Detroit Lions are a much bigger embarrassment. While that may be true, I'm still not quite sure that the Lions are the measuring stick that the UM fans are using.
It has been 50 years since Michigan lost its first two home games of the season, and 40 years since UM has lost four straight, but that's where the Maize and Blue stand today.
And I agree with Sharp's assessment. Carr has kept Michigan near the top of the college football, however, the time has come to pass off the program before it does slide. Sharp goes on to mention FSU and Penn State as examples of where coaches who could have (should have?) walked away, and now those to programs are in marked decline.
I believe Carr loves the UM program too much to hurt it and he must announce his retirement. He does to deserve to go out on his own terms, as long as those terms are... at the end of the season.
Michigan still has a shot at winning the Big 10 title and playing in the Rose Bowl. But -- regardless of what Michigan wins this year -- the 2007 season will always be about what Michigan lost: swagger, confidence, direction, and two embarrassing games at home to unranked teams.
Comments:
c-dogg said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:27 AM — 76.188.187.185 — link — abuse?
I would have said no to firing him immediately. But that was before Oregon players said that they felt Michigan quit in the game. Yes he needs to go.....immediately.
A horrible season will hurt recruiting. No player wants to play for a bunch of quitters.
gatorhippy
posted on September 9, 2007 9:36 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse?
said:
1st_&_Nole (#1):
"YES!!! He's lost complete control of the situation. This has gotten out of hand.
They need a change, they need a fresh start."
Under those ideals, shouldn't Bobby be fired as well?
Or maybe Carr should be allowed the benefit of the doubt and just switch up his staff in the off season...
Bottom line: It's too early to talk about firing Carr...
Wolvies still could bring it together and play for that Rose Bowl berth with a B10 champ...
1st_and_NOLE
posted on September 9, 2007 9:45 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
Yes, technically Michigan can still win the B10 and go on to a BCS Bowl...
However, that's not very realistic with how they're playing right now. Yesterday, they didn't even look competitive - at all. They laid down and didn't even put up much of a fight, they quit. Their defense is extremely exposed, their offense isn't clicking, and they have no swagger, confidence, and are in complete disarray.
It's safe to say Penn St or Wisconsin will win the B10 because right now, Michigan doesn't even look competitive.
geauxtigers0107 said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:55 AM — 144.5.224.142 — link — abuse?
Man I never thought I'd see the day that Michigan.....MICHIGAN....would lose two games like that. And at the Big House? Unbelievable. I do think Carr has earned the right to try and fix the situation. I keep hearing the rumors about Les Miles also. Do I think he'll go? I don't know...I hope not but as Herbstreet (sp?) said last night, you can never underestimate a man's heart and his is understandably in Michigan. But how do you leave LSU? A system that continually replenishes itself with top recruits, a rabid fan base (not that Mich doesn't have that), a successful program with national title probabilities...to go to a team that is apparently in a downward spiral? It can happen. And if it does, we'll wish him the best and hire Saban back....yeah right...lol.
geauxtigers0107 said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:56 AM — 144.5.224.142 — link — abuse?
Man I never thought I'd see the day that Michigan.....MICHIGAN....would lose two games like that. And at the Big House? Unbelievable. I do think Carr has earned the right to try and fix the situation. I keep hearing the rumors about Les Miles also. Do I think he'll go? I don't know...I hope not but as Herbstreet (sp?) said last night, you can never underestimate a man's heart and his is understandably in Michigan. But how do you leave LSU? A system that continually replenishes itself with top recruits, a rabid fan base (not that Mich doesn't have that), a successful program with national title probabilities...to go to a team that is apparently in a downward spiral? It can happen. And if it does, we'll wish him the best and hire Saban back....yeah right...lol.
Geaux SEC
Geaux TigersTom Blogical
posted on September 9, 2007 9:58 AM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
I watched that game yesterday, and other than the goal line stand in the 2nd half at 39-7, and the UM players mailed it in. I think it was a bad sign that one of the wide receivers kicked an Oregon player just for tackling him with authority. Carr has lost control of his team. Any time UM is going to be faced with adversity for the rest of the season, it'll happen again (the players giving up), even if some of the players fight on.
Typically, you don't fire a coach this early in the season unless he's lost control of the team. It's obvious this team's spirit is broken, but I'd say with what Carr has done for the program, I'd give him one more game.
It's a tough call to make, because firing the Head Coach tells the players the season is over.
1st_and_NOLE
posted on September 9, 2007 10:08 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy #3:
I can understand your points but, comparing Carr to Bowden is apples and oranges.
Bowden has clearly done much more for the FSU program (uh, he single handedly built it) then Carr has for Michigan (they're a historical power, even when Carr was in diapers).
So yeah, Bowden deserved more of a chance to right the ship by hiring new assistants.
Carr has a team that flat out quit on him. They just laid down. This is a serious problem for Michigan.
Can you imagine if Michigan loses to an AWFUL ND team next weekend???
Bobby said:
posted on September 9, 2007 10:58 AM — 198.147.139.184 — link — abuse?
It looks as though the M team has lost confidence in Carr and themselves and therefore have quit. I think M has a serious problem, how can Carr recruit top players when they can see that current ones don't believe in him. What can Carr sell them on right now? I don't know what I think M will do with Carr. You know Ohio St. and other big 10 teams are eye ballin' current M recruits. Wow...this has been a great season so far unless your a M fan, but as go blue once said atleast M still has the wealthiest alum. and their hockey team.
hrposon said:
posted on September 9, 2007 11:02 AM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
Lloyd Carr appears to be a class act and all great teams have bad years. He also won the only Mythical National Championship for Michigan in the last 60 years. Bo Schembechler couldn't win one.
Michigan's real problem is the their archrival cheats, got caught, and still got into 2 BCS championship games in 4 years and the zebras gave them the title against Miami.
When you run a clean program, you're going to have down cycles.
Rtpayton said:
posted on September 9, 2007 11:18 AM — 74.129.69.31 — link — abuse?
Fireing loyd carr isn't going to help anything...
Mich's defense is too slow and inexperienced anyone with some decent speed receivers and a semi-mobile QB could beat Michigan this season by running a spread offense...
PopsMich said:
posted on September 9, 2007 11:30 AM — 71.77.24.80 — link — abuse?
He is going, but not until the end of the season. There is no point in firing him at present, since there are no replacements to be named, and not a candidate from within as a permanent replacement.
He recruited the players, and they're his. The Big 10 season ends so early, that there will be plenty of time for replacing him. Don't even bring up Big 10, Bowls or BCS games. If you watched these games you know they won't be playing after Christmas at best.
Firing him now won't accomplish anything, unless the team simply throw their uniforms on the field this coming week against ND. If that happens, then he'll have to be removed and replaced by some interim assistant.
This program has been broken for a while now under Carr's watch. Looking past the pain of the present, it'll be sweet when UM is back where it belongs with the Elite teams. For now (and even recent years) that simply hasn't been the case.
I've been around long enough to see the best of the best in EVERY sport go through hard times. It doesn't make it easier, but what I'll say for all fans riding high at present is "Let it Rip" when your team is Champ. There is nothing like it, and I can't wait for that again with UM Football!
Old U of M Guy said:
posted on September 9, 2007 12:23 PM — 66.233.101.87 — link — abuse?
Michigan should have never been rated in the top 20 this year and most of us true Michigan fans know that even if it's hard to swallow.Michigan needs a defense and the past 2 weeks prove it.Carr needs to go, the old school football is a way of the past. Michigan will be strong again but not with Carr at the helm..
badgerballer said:
posted on September 9, 2007 12:43 PM — 71.34.152.11 — link — abuse?
"The best predictor of future behavior or performance, is past behavior or performance."That trusty and true old statement, pretty much sums it up. Carr is another coach, like Phillip Fulmer, living off of faded glory...."we had a great team and won a nat'l title in 1997, boy, we were the best around..."
On the other hand, as a fan of another Big10 team - part of me says, 'keep his choking @$$ right there'. Because if he gets fired, Michigan will be scouring a vast list of very capable coaches in both college and the NFL. Any one of which may well come in, turn that thing around and return UM to a nat'l power and a threat to win the conference every year. Badgers don't need that.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on September 9, 2007 1:19 PM — 24.60.228.158 — link — abuse?
Fire Lloyd? No; no way, that would be stupid. Lloyd is smart and experienced.
I believe the Michigan fans are actually exacerbating the situation by creating a hostle working environment. The fan base needs to correct it's bad attitude.
What about the players? If one expects to lose, one will. The players themselves must pull together and get things in order.
One can't always blame the coach. He's not the one dropping passes and missing tackles. It's the players. they are acting like losers and shall continue to do so.
The Michigan Footballers better grow some stones, and in a hurry!
badgerballer said:
posted on September 9, 2007 2:20 PM — 71.34.152.11 — link — abuse?
@ #16
At the end of the day, the head coach is the one who is responsible and must answer for these consistent failures. No, he's not the one dropping passes, etc., but he IS the one trotting out the same old, tired game plans and unimaginative schemes on both sides of the ball. Jim Tressle and basically every other coach in the Big10 OWNS a copy of Michigan's playbook and situational defensive propensities.
In the past it didn't matter b/c Michigan could overwhelm opponents simply by virtue of having the superior athletes. Such is no longer the case. With the leveling of the scholarship playing field and resulting parody - UM is no longer head & shoulders above in terms of raw talent. So it comes much more to progressive thinking in terms of coaching & play calling, getting teams prepared for game day, and in-game management. ESPECIALLY halftime adjustments! The bottom line is, Carr has shown rather consistently, that these are not areas he accels in.
The 'one can't always blame the coach' line of thinking works for a game, or two, maybe even three. But after a half decade of failure to meet expectations, one certainly can and should.
whattheheck said:
posted on September 9, 2007 2:25 PM — 75.187.103.147 — link — abuse?
These games are getting so bad that people are putting up websites just to vote if they can win the Big 10 title, or even win at all!
Some fans still say yes ..
Come on guys this is getting ridiculous!!! Then Hart has to open his mouth to say they are for sure winning next week. Like that won't make it on a locker room boad somewhere.
Let's go Blue!
posted on September 9, 2007 2:49 PM — 72.152.63.173 — link — abuse?War Eagle Atlanta said:
Typical knee-jerk reaction of the fans. Michigan fans calling for Carr's ouster should take a long look in the mirror. So much optimism going into the season, so much despair now. Just calm down and take a deep breath. They can still have a good season. No NC for sure, but they can still win the Big10. Jeez...
Eye of the Tiger said:
posted on September 9, 2007 3:45 PM — 68.107.108.135 — link — abuse?
Good post 16. I agree completely. Let the guy do his job. Nobody likes to be micromanaged. Nobody could make these guys play better....Nobody! Their problem is on defense. If they (the players themselves)fix that, they go on to have an outstanding year. I really wish people would give App St. more credit too. App St. would beat just about anybody in 1A.
CUtotalTiger said:
posted on September 9, 2007 4:48 PM — 68.59.7.45 — link — abuse?
You do not fire anyone after two games, espceically when the games are non-conference. Look, Michigan will play a horrible Notre Dame team that has no offense. They will win that game and will then open the Big 10 season against Penn State at home. If they beat Penn State, then the next five games are they should win. So figure Michigan will be 7-2 or 6-3 and visions of winning the conference will be in everyone's head. And instead of being the goat, we will be taling about the coaching job he did. He is the same coach he was last year and the players are still talented. they just have poor speed on defense and they better figure a way to compensate for that. Much bigger problems at Notre Dame.
JT said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:27 PM — 71.213.229.218 — link — abuse?
Speaking of the 1-AA teams, Northern Iowa finished the job they start last year against Iowa State. UNI missed a field goal in the closing seconds to lose last year, but they took a 24-13 victory at Iowa State this year. Still, perennial "tune-up opponent" Kent State won at Jack Trice a little over a week ago, 23-14, so I'm not sure 1-AA #9 UNI has a lot to celebrate about.
badgerballer said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:35 PM — 71.34.152.11 — link — abuse?
Agreed, you don't fire a head coach over losing two games. Its the body of work that is to be considered, most specifically, the past 5 years. It is on that test that I think Carr comes up short.The consistent inability to beat the school's arch-rival is no small deal in the eyes of boosters, alumni, backers, fans, season-ticket purchasers, etc. Namely - those people that have the ear of the University President, Chancellor, Board of Regents (some of whom probably are ON the Board), Athletic Director and other persons of influence.
If they lose another game in the Big House this year, and/or fail to defeat OSU, I think it'll be curtains for ol' Lloyd.
Mr.McAteer said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:39 PM — 71.206.247.138 — link — abuse?
Damn
imagine how horrible Michigan would be if Hart, Henne, and Jake Long left to go to the NFL
Even tho i live in West Virginia i got cousins in Kalamazoo who are big, big Michigan fans and i feel for them
Everytime they play i cheer for them to win especially when they play OSU
hopefully they can pick there heads up and turn their season aroung with a blowout of Notre Shame
U. of S. C. 1978 said:
posted on September 9, 2007 10:12 PM — 97.82.188.250 — link — abuse?
All of the coaching staff should not be fired, they should all be burned at the stake. It's only Big 10 ball understand, but never the less, firing is not good enough for those gomers. Apparently the title of "BACK TO BACK NATIONAL CHAMPIONS" did not excite these gomers. There was something about the fact that said CHAMPIONS train at 3300 feet above sea level that did not excite said gomers.
All that being said, no inspiration or learning from a huge mistake. The DUCKS took advantage of the DORKS. There is not a team in the land that would rather play Appalachian before much over-hyped Michigan. If you are an official voter in any poll, be ashamed. It shows that you guys are not smart enough to reserve the first ten spots for the SEC and southern football.hokie4life said:
posted on September 9, 2007 10:33 PM — 65.6.249.187 — link — abuse?
a team has a couple of bad games and people want his head on a platter. how ignorent is that!!! look at vt, i love beamer he is vt football, but he does an absolutely piss poor job of getting his team ready for the BIG games example obvious case last night: LSU, Chic-fil-a bowl last year, Miami two years ago in Blacksburg, GT last year, ACC championship game Vs. FSU 2 years ago, hell I can go on and on!!! It seems like vt can't come together and play like a team in the BIG ones!! They fold like lawn chairs. I know the talent is there to win, beamer just doesn't get to his players. I guess my point is, Carr deserves to keep his job for the rest of the season. Why fire a coach in the beginning of a season??? Hell they haven't even started conference play yet. Give the man a chance.
Marko said:
posted on September 9, 2007 10:53 PM — 97.97.163.193 — link — abuse?
You people that are not Michigan fans do NOT understand why we are calling for Lloyd's head on a platter after two games... Let be break it down for you:
1. 4 game losing streak
2. 1100+ yards given up in those games
3. 100+ points
4. 4 bowl game losses
5. Losing to a sub-division team
6. Losing to Ohio State 3 times in a row.. UNACCEPTABLE!!Michigan has a long tradition of winning and national championships... Lloyd does not represent that. He has lost control of his team, failed to adapt to a new style of football and refuses to change with the times.
Michigan fans want to win. For the first time in my life i felt that people were snickering at me when i wore my Michigan hat out in public, do any of you know how that feels? We have become the laughing stock of college football this year and its absolutely kills me. I want Lloyd gone and Ron English and his bullshit defense OUT.
U. of S. C. 1978 said:
posted on September 9, 2007 10:58 PM — 97.82.188.250 — link — abuse?
Poor ole hokie4life. You just don't get it. Your team has over excelled at times. They deserve all of our congrats for that. That does not mean they are first tier. If I were you I would also hope they are first tier. Sorry Dude, your team is nothing but a little tall grass to any team in the hunt.
CUTotalTiger said:
posted on September 9, 2007 11:18 PM — 68.59.7.45 — link — abuse?
Cock n Misfire is correct. Had South Carolina fired Spurrier in 2005 after losing to Clemson and the bowl game. They would not have had the coach to finish 4th in the SEC East...... again. And of course, give Short cock and pre-fire time and he will tell you the Shamecocks will beat LSU by 40 points!
CUTotalTiger said:
posted on September 9, 2007 11:30 PM — 68.59.7.45 — link — abuse?
Marko..... post #32,
Did you want Carr gone last year? I believe you are frustrated and emotional.
Michigan has lost two games to non-conferece teams. You have a rival game coming up, beat them and then the schedule gets easy. App. State has a good football team and Oregon and the rest of the PAC 10 have the best conference in the land this year. Do not throw the towel in just yet. You can not go to a BCS unless you win you conference. And you have not played a conference game yet. Think of Auburn, Miami, Notre Dame and Virgina Tech.... I do not hear anyone wanting to fire these coaches.cock'n'fire south carolina 101 said:
posted on September 10, 2007 1:29 AM — 96.10.98.113 — link — abuse?
mr total tiger
ur starting to become really funny...the name thing is getting a little weird because without sidney rice im not seeing much cock'n'fire in the gamecocks...this year our team will be all about speed and we are gonna have one heck of a running game...all im seeing with the passing game is a few shots to kenny and some break outs with our incredible tide ends...but im not sayin were beating LSU by 40 but im going to baton rouge on the 22nd and im not looking at a huge loss im looking more at a game within a touchdown probly but i still have to say im seeing my gamecocks out on top as of now...spurrier knows what hes doing...all those bad things hes been saying about our team hes bluffing...thats what he wants them to think so im think maybe about 31-17 against LSU is my prediction
Bleed Crimson said:
posted on September 10, 2007 4:22 AM — 130.160.147.104 — link — abuse?
Marko:
haha. i didnt even think about it from a fans perspective. i know id make some kinda comment to a guy wearing a michigan hat tomorrow. i feel bad for yall. but that awful feeling you must have is due in large part the GOD DAMNED PRESEASON POLLS! i hate those things more than the BCS. if you want to have one in sports illustrated, thats fine, but there should be no number next to a team until after the 3rd week of football. michigan fans are so upset, and everyone is shocked because two weeks ago, they were the number 5 team in the country... wow
Bleed Crimson said:
posted on September 10, 2007 4:23 AM — 130.160.147.104 — link — abuse?
Marko:
haha. i didnt even think about it from a fans perspective. i know id make some kinda comment to a guy wearing a michigan hat tomorrow. i feel bad for yall. but that awful feeling you must have is due in large part the GOD DAMNED PRESEASON POLLS! i hate those things more than the BCS. if you want to have one in sports illustrated, thats fine, but there should be no number next to a team until after the 3rd week of football. michigan fans are so upset, and everyone is shocked because two weeks ago, they were the number 5 team in the country... wow
gatorhippy
posted on September 10, 2007 7:58 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
1st&Nole (#8):
Right...
"Bobby Bowden is FSU, blah, blah, blah..."
This doesn't give Bowden the right to burn the program to the ground...
Point still stands that if you're going to make the comment that a program needs "a fresh start" you can't look any further than Tally to apply that same philosophy...
Carr has never had a losing season at Michigan as HC and has worked on the Wolvie staff since 1980...
Where you'll see what Lloyd is made of is in the remainder of the season and if he is able to bring them up for B10 play...
1st_and_NOLE
posted on September 10, 2007 8:08 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy:
The point was, Bowden has earned the right to turn FSU around more then Carr has to turn Michigan around.
I'm not saying he should be fired mid-season but, they do need to make a change at season's end. Carr's team has QUIT on him. They LAID DOWN and died. That's a serious problem.
FSU may have had bad teams the past but I've never seen them quit on Bowden before. The only game you could make that case would be WF last year. However, immediately following that loss changes were already declared because JB stepped down. So Bowden this off-season has made the needed staff changes to turn the program around.
Again, you're comparing two completely different situations. Apples and oranges.
gatorhippy
posted on September 10, 2007 9:08 AM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
FistedNole (#42):
Sorry, but I don't agree...
The two situations really aren't that different...
Both involve putrid and uninspired play at the moment with long tenured coaches that are key figures in the history of their programs...
Bobby deserves no less or more working room than Carr...
Shutr McGvn said:
posted on September 10, 2007 9:34 AM — 206.15.203.10 — link — abuse?
Don't fire a guy that has a history of success. At least you know what you're getting with Carr. He has won in the past. Look what happened to ND once Lou left. There hasn't been consistent leadership since. Message is - it can get worse - be careful what you wish for. ND worst in rushing and total yds YTD? Where is the charlie offensive genius? Punt on 1st down - mix it up a little.
Tom Blogical
posted on September 10, 2007 9:52 AM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
Bobby deserves no less or more working room than Carr..."
I have to disagree. Bowden's team is still buying what he's selling. Carr's team quit on him Saturday--during just the second game of the season. If he can't get the team to play for him against ND, and/or if they quit in the face of adversity again, he should definitely go.
That's going to be one train wreck of a football game. How bad should the loser feel in that one?
TampaGator said:
posted on September 10, 2007 10:40 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Marko:
Welcome to the real world.
Michigan has been winning so long in the B-10, now you get to feel what it's like to be a fan of one of the other schools (save osu). Wearing your colors at times like this is what sets the fair-weathers apart from the die-hards. Wear those colors with pride, son. When Michigan wins again, wearing those colors will be sweeter than you can imagine!
That said, maybe next time Michigan is riding high, y'all won't be so damn arrogant about it. Heck, the USC rosebowl beatdown and the OSU demolition in Tempe weren't enough to shut y'all up about last year; it took Appy state shocker and Oregon home blow out to instill some damn humility; hopefully it'll stick.By the way: did anyone catch that sign (actually a life size cardboard cut out) made up by some clever LSU fan for college gameday, of Nick Saban wearing a Michigan shirt, holding bags of money in each hand? LMAO!!
GO GATORS!!pac10rules said:
posted on September 10, 2007 10:40 AM — 74.223.56.50 — link — abuse?
I would give the situation 1 more game. If Michigan fails to outplay ND and loses again I would fire Carr. The entire situation can't be blamed on Carr. He is the leader of that team though and unfortunatley its the coach that bites the bullet. Check out www.rushfor2000yards.com
TampaGator said:
posted on September 10, 2007 11:15 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Gatorhip:
I have to side with 1st and Nole; Carr to Michigan is nowhere near Bowden to FSU--who is more like JoPa to PSU.
Bowden and JoPa both deserve to write their own ticket; Carr, like most everyone else, has to earn his keep--which it doesn't appear he's been doing of late.
...and I like Carr alot; he's a class act. I loved the fact that he owned the Appy state loss, and shielded his players from critisism. Perhaps he deserves a little more margin of error, but definitely not the latitude that Bowden and JoPa have earned.
My $.02.
GO GATORS!!
Seminole Jack said:
posted on September 10, 2007 12:58 PM — 66.147.117.53 — link — abuse?
I could not agree with you more Bleed Crimson. I have been screaming that for years. The preseason polls are based alot on guessing and perception and not what happens on the field. It seems to me that the pollsters make a wild guess before the season starts and unless a team loses they are completely unwilling to alter the poll, it is amazing to me.
Case in point, LSU should be the number one team in the country right now, since at this point in the season they have done alot more than anyone else. But since USC was rated #1 in the preseason poll and they did not lose this week the pollsters feel that they should not move down.
Another thing which amazes me about the polls is as follows. Say you have two teams in the country who are head and shoulders above everyone else and they play a game which comes down to a play which could have gone either way (a game winning field goal for example). The team which loses the game will automatically drop in the polls below teams which clearly are inferior, can someone explain that to me? Or if you have a team which is unranked or ranked 15 or above hang for 60 minutes with a top ranked team (top 5) but lose in the last couple of minutes, that team will also drop in the polls although they have proven that they can hang with the top dogs? HUH?
frustrated fan said:
posted on September 10, 2007 1:24 PM — 70.60.34.54 — link — abuse?
I am a lifelong Michigan fan living in Ohio, thats right Ohio. I became a Michigan fan when I was young because Ohio State fans were insanley obnoxious, especialy in the face of defeat. Every year I would catch hell until the last game of the season which usualy resulted in a Michigan win. If anyone remembers the 90s, the Ohio State program was near embarrasing, especialy when playing Michigan. I almost wrote them off as rivals. It brought so much pleasure to to see the sad arrogant faces of Buckeye fans at school on on the following Monday, no one laughed at Michigan then. I never gloated, just smiled and sported my k-Mart Desmond howard jersey. Those days weren't that long ago and more than likely they will be back sooner than later. Laugh now Michigan haters, better days loom ahead for the maize and blue. Just try not to have your feelings hurt too bad though when those days are here and your tema is getting the score run up on them.
Bobby said:
posted on September 10, 2007 1:42 PM — 146.6.158.10 — link — abuse?
Seminole Jack, grest post #50. I think LSU should be #1 and Oklahoma #2. USC should have to play their way back to top dog. To me the most troubling thing about college football is the BCS and polls. It's controlled by money as seen time and time again. And no matter how many times it's pointed out or just plain obvious it seems like change will never happen.
CUTotalTiger said:
posted on September 10, 2007 2:18 PM — 68.59.7.45 — link — abuse?
Gator Hippy is correct... And i rarely agree with him.
FSU fans ran Jeff Bowden out of town last year. It was his fault. I warned you Seminoles that it was not only offense but defense and athletes that you were having problems with. You struggled against UAB, a team that Michigan State hung 50 plus point on! The situations are the same. If FSU loses the next two, FSU fans will be wanting Bobby to step down and the talks about the Georia coach coming back, Terry taking over, Tommy taking over will be everywhere.
GA Boy said:
posted on September 10, 2007 3:14 PM — 97.89.29.93 — link — abuse?
cock on fire
Did you watch the LSU game Saturday or were you too busy reeling in your win against the DAWGS? You only managed to score 16 against the DAWGS D and you think you will get 31 against LSU in Baton Rouge? Good luck with that! We will be tied in SEC East after 9/22. 1 and 1 for each of us. We beat Alabama that night and you take a beating from LSU. Then we will see who can beat out the other knuckleheads in the East TN, FLA, Kentucky.GO DAWGS.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on September 10, 2007 3:31 PM — 24.60.228.158 — link — abuse?
I believe the real culprit here are the Mighigan players, themselves. They played the Ducks like a bunch of faggots in blue and maze panty hose. All they were missing were the high heel pumps and a snappy feather shawl.As for Appy State, they flat out beat the crap out of the Michigan footballers. This is a prime example of how being lazy and arrogant can come back and bite one in the ass.
I feel sorry for Lloyd. He's taking all the heat. The impression I get is that the fans owe him an appology.
They should be thankful for having him.
Dan G said:
posted on September 10, 2007 4:04 PM — 65.119.137.67 — link — abuse?
Can we all agree that Michigan sucks? I watched about half of the game
yesterday and the scary thing is that I wasn't even
surprised by what I saw. I love how the national
media is now just realizing the same facts that any
Michigan fan has known for years, namely:1. Michigan has no concept of how to stop a spread
offense, unless the offense is run by a QB or
offensive coach that stops itself (see Stanton, Drew
and Smith, John L).2. The Big House is not an intimidating place to play
no matter how many seats they add to that stadium.3. Michigan is still recruiting the same types of
players for the same offensive and defensive sets that
colleges were running 5-10 years ago. They could
probably get away with running the conventional pro
offense (USC does this as well still) if they had a
clue of how to protect their immobile QB's from
athletic D-lines and linebackers and if they had a
defense that was remotely capable of stopping any type
of offense that features a formation other than 2
RB's, 2 WR's and 1 TE.Everyone wants to fire Carr and they might be right,
but my bigger concern is who they'd be able to replace
him with. The best choice would have been Cam Cameron
but he's in his first year of a five year deal
coaching the Miami Dolphins. Jim Harbaugh might not
have been a good choice had he not burned every bridge
with his alma matter running his mouth to hype
Stanford. That leaves Les Miles at LSU but I have no
idea why he would want to leave that gig to deal with
the insanity at Michigan. On the other hand, 6 or 7
years ago I would have said you'd have to be out of
your mind to want to coach at LSU instead of Michigan
- guess Nick Saban did a pretty good job of turning
that program around before he added them to the long
list of teams he's fucked over.The other part I worry about is that I think the
people who run the Michigan Athletic program need a
serious wake-up call - they still think that Michigan
is the best of the best when it comes to college
football programs in this country and carry themselves
with the arrogance of such a program (note to the
Michigan Athletic Department: have you heard of
schools named USC, Florida and Oklahoma? They're kind
of better than you on a regular basis). In reality
Michigan is more like a Top 15 program in terms of
things that matter, like facilities, fan support,
merchandising, recruiting and moving players on to the
NFL. If they approach a job search for the next
football coach the same way they did for the last 2
basketball coaches, Michigan football fans will have
plenty of Insight.com and Poulan Weed Eater
Independence Bowl trips to look forward to in future
years.A buddy of mine who went to Ohio State was only too
happy to mention the other day that John Cooper is
still available on the unemployment line. I think I'm
becoming violently ill.
Cane Mutiny
posted on September 10, 2007 4:33 PM — 65.12.247.141 — link — abuse? said:
Dan G, you're right on all points....and yeah, the Big House doesn't really seem that intimidating at all. Only a few stadiums are really scary themselves...I'll give it to Ohio State's Horseshoe, Lane at VaTech, both Death Valleys, the Swamp, and, of course, the Orange Bowl, but the Big House just seems really big and really bland. And I've said it for a while, the Big Eleven is way overrated. Penn State has yet to falter, but I think it's only a matter of time...Wisconsin is the only Big Eleven team I have any faith in.
hokie4life said:
posted on September 10, 2007 4:51 PM — 216.89.164.100 — link — abuse?
@33 I assume you are a Trojan fan? First and formost you may wanna shut that pie hole until the fighting poperattzi's have actually played someone! Second, VT has not been on the national scene for long and don't think that Hokie Nation doesn't know that either. VT is certainly a team that plays more with heart and emotion than raw talent. I went to VT and I've followed them for several years now. The talent is now coming with time mixed with the heart and VT is a solid top 25 team no doubt. No, VT doesn't cash in on all the top recruits in the country like other schools do. I think they do well considering they don't get top 10 classes year after year. Let's talk about your condoms shall we? Is it a fact that if USC beats UCLA they go to the national championship last season? Your team has folded in the past also my friend! How about Texas for the title. Your team folded in that game as well. Vince Young single handedly whipped the entire USC team in that game! USC is a great and storied program no doubt, but you may wanna check yourself before picking on the "tall grass" teams. By the way how is Pete Carroll and USC treating their recruits these days? I hear they treat them quite well?
cock'n'fire south carolina 101 said:
posted on September 10, 2007 4:53 PM — 96.10.98.113 — link — abuse?
GA (bo)Y post 56,
did you even read what i said on the last comment i put? that comment u made makes no sense...if u notice i said that steve spurrier hasnt been playing at his maximum yet...if u knew anything about spurrier u would know that that isnt how he coaches football teams...i think steve spurrier is gonna play everybody playing all of his play that he has yet to show against LSU and show the nation the real speed our team has...there was an article in the state newspaper that is talking about spurrier bringing out the passing game in practice so he can decide who to redshirt...al weve been doing is running the ball and throwing short passes nothing fancy and when u watch the south carolina vs lsu game u are gonna be like "holy crap georgia is a very good football team to have had such a close game with south carolina...also i think alabamas gonna kick UGA's @$$ because they beat vandy last week and vanderbilt can definately beat the GA team i saw that doesnt know how to score touchdowns...georgia isnt looking like a very good football team right now and sabans tide will run over georgia just like u said georgia will run over south carolina...so next time actually read something be4 u respond to it
GO COCKS!(2-0) AND GO CHARGERS!(1-0)
Eye of the Tiger said:
posted on September 10, 2007 5:10 PM — 138.163.0.44 — link — abuse?
There's a surprise #62. I can't remember the last time I heard a South Carolina fan running off at the mouth. You must be really excited about the season, but I kinda liked the humbled version better. We'll see if you're still posting crap about how slick Spurrier is after the 22nd.
Eye of the Tiger said:
posted on September 10, 2007 5:12 PM — 138.163.0.44 — link — abuse?
There's a surprise #62. I can't remember the last time I heard a South Carolina fan running off at the mouth. You must be really excited about the season, but I kinda liked the humbled version better. We'll see if you're still posting crap about how slick Spurrier is after the 22nd.
Eye of the Tiger said:
posted on September 10, 2007 5:13 PM — 138.163.0.44 — link — abuse?
There's a surprise #62. I can't remember the last time I heard a South Carolina fan running off at the mouth. You must be really excited about the season, but I kinda liked the humbled version better. We'll see if you're still posting crap about how slick Spurrier is after the 22nd.
Eye of the Tiger said:
posted on September 10, 2007 5:14 PM — 138.163.0.44 — link — abuse?
There's a surprise #62. I can't remember the last time I heard a South Carolina fan running off at the mouth. You must be really excited about the season, but I kinda liked the humbled version better. We'll see if you're still posting crap about how slick Spurrier is after the 22nd.
Tom Blogical
posted on September 10, 2007 6:22 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
Dan G:
You had me laughing my arse off. As a Buckeye fan, I feel your pain. Once John Cooper left, things got better, although Cooper did bring OSU out of the "3 yards and a cloud of dust era." You'd be surprised to see the names come out of the woodwork to come and coach for Michigan.
I think the rest of the Big 10(11) has the same problems as far as going to a BCS bowl game this year. I have to say I'd be very surprised and pleased if OSU won 8 games this year.
Just remember, a lot can change for Michigan's season this Saturday.
Marko said:
posted on September 10, 2007 7:17 PM — 97.97.163.193 — link — abuse?
CUTotalTiger #35,
Yes, I did want Carr gone last year and the year before that. The ONLY reason I gave him a slight pass this year is because he had the whole offense returning and he would have NO excuse not to compete for the national championship. The start to this year is INEXCUSABLE. I want him out this week. Bring on Rich Rodriguez next year.
Marko said:
posted on September 10, 2007 7:23 PM — 97.97.163.193 — link — abuse?
TampaGator,
We Michigan fans expect a national championship every year. With 11 national championships, we are used to having a winning program. I know thats a foreign concept to Gator fans(2 national championships and you are as arrogant as USC fans).
Lloyd Carr is running the michigan program into the ground for years now and he needs to be run out of ann arbor.
hrposon said:
posted on September 10, 2007 7:48 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@ #60 Cane Mutiny - Wisconsin? They just bearly beat out UNLV.
You are right though, the Big Eleven just isn't that good. And to think that just last year a couple of ESPNers were touting an Ohio State and Michigan rematch for the BCS title.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on September 10, 2007 7:48 PM — 24.60.228.158 — link — abuse?
Marko post #70;Take it easy Buddy! Just because people are snickering at you when wearing a Michigan cap, doesn't mean it's the end of the world. Believe me pal, I can be empathic with you. Do you have any idea what it was like being a Rutgers fan for the past 15 years? Let me clue you in, it was painful.
Remember the important things in life...Michigan is still fantastic academically, and that ain't chop liver!
You Michigan guys need to eat some humble pie for a while. It builds character and is good for you. Trust me, I know about these things, I'm a doctor. True, I'm a Gynecologist, but I'm still a doctor.
Now take two asprins and call me in the morning.
S Wiley said:
posted on September 10, 2007 8:09 PM — 74.36.234.242 — link — abuse?
Good Grief Michigan fans, get a life and go on. To me, firing the coach this early in the season can only cause strife amoung all the players and asssitant coaches. Just because you played teams that were not a push over and you lost, GET OVER IT!!!
I feel that the fans are not used to losing and that is sad. Be a little less arrogant and realize it can happen to anyone, even Michigan!!!!
We have two games down and several more to go. So much more football ahead. Deal with it and go on. Quit being cry babies.Born in Columbus, but a Michigan fan said:
posted on September 10, 2007 8:10 PM — 72.240.16.77 — link — abuse?
fire his ass!! 4 games in a row! i mean at first he was just losing the biggest games of the season! (Bowl Games and Ohio State), and even then i backed him as still a great coach. But then he starts losing the gimmes!!! I mean common theres only so much a guy like myself living in Columbus born and raised but a die hard michigan fan can stick up for. Alls i get is trash talking, but i still talk bout the 97' national championship thats just getting old.
Basically fire Lloyd Carr, hire Jeff Tedford of Cal
hrposon said:
posted on September 10, 2007 8:16 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@ #70 Marko - You raise a good point.
I hear a lot of head coaches and athletic directors tell their alumni and boosters that they play for the National Championship every year, and then they go out and schedule D1-AA opponents.
At least Michigan scheduled two big time football nonconference opponents this year. Schools that schedule 3 and 4 weaklings as nonconference opponents should declare that they are taking themselves out of the MNC consideration for that year.
Tomcat said:
posted on September 10, 2007 10:26 PM — 69.148.173.234 — link — abuse?
Read Post # 36- purty impressive record
Next week its ND vs Mich somebodys got to win one next week, Kinda funny that I dont recall seeing Mr.Carr's name on the hot seat thread prior to the season starting. There is still alot of football to be played.It would not be good for the team to change coaches this early in the season.
Congrats Mr Mayor
Go Ducksgatorhippy
posted on September 10, 2007 10:39 PM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
1st_and_Nole, Tom B, T-Gat, Marko:
“Again, you're comparing two completely different situations. Apples and oranges.” - 1nNole(#42):
After looking at this again…
I thought to myself…
“Self, maybe that Nole’s right, but I doubt it”…
“So, let’s compare apples to apples”…
Bobby & Lloyd at Year 11...
Bowden
Year Record Bowl AP
1976 5-6-0
1977 10-2-0 W Tangerine 10
1978 8-3-0
1979 11-1-0 L Orange 6
1980 10-2-0 L Orange 5
1981 6-5-0
1982 9-3-0 W Gator 13
1983 8-4-0 W Peach
1984 7-3-2 T Citrus 17
1985 9-3-0 W Gator 15
1986 7-4-1 W All-American
90-36-3 5-2-1/8 bowlsCarr
Year Overall (Con) B10 Bowl AP
1995 9-4 (5-3) 3rd L Alamo 19
1996 8-4 (5-3) 4th L Outback 20
1997 12-0 (8-0) 1st W Rose 1
1998 10-3 (7-1) 1stT W Citrus 12
1999 10-2 (6-2) 2nd W Orange 5
2000 9-3 (6-2) 1stT W Citrus 10
2001 8-4 (6-2) 2nd L Citrus 20
2002 10-3 (6-2) 3rd W Outback 9
2003 10-3 (7-1) 1st L Rose 7
2004 9-3 (7-1) 1stT L Rose 12
2005 7-5 (5-3) 3rd L Alamo --
2006 11-2 (7-1) 2nd L Rose 9
113-36 (75-21) 5-6/11 bowlsCarr's win percentage exceeds Bowden's and in his first eleven years his teams only ranked outside the top twenty once when they fell all the way out two seasons ago...
He won a MNC in his third year while it took Bowden just short of twenty years to win his first...
Which could be dismissed as winning "with someone else's players" except for the fact that Carr is a long standing fixture at Michigan having been on staff since 1980 under Coach Bo...
Lloyd looks better over the first eleven years when compared against Bobby...
Therefore...
If Carr should be fired now, then Bobby should have been in 1986...
At least, that would be the logic you're carrying if you say Carr should be fired...
1st_and_NOLE
posted on September 10, 2007 11:21 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy #77:
I have no doubt you're a very intelligent man. If you have a degree from UF, obviously you're very bright. However, you're ARGUMENT is very lacking. If anything, you're further proving my point.
APPLES AND ORANGES.
Lets think about this...
What was FSU when Bowden took over??? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. FSU was a program on the verge of SHUTTING DOWN. Bowden was in the most competitive college football region in America - the Southeast - with the least competitive program in the nation. It had few resources, a small stadium, even smaller fan base, and had nothing going for it. Yet, he built it, molded it, and turned it into a powerhouse.
What was Michigan when Carr took over??? IT WAS FREAKING MICHIGAN!!! It was the winningest program EVER in CF. It was a storied, historic program already built. It was an EMPIRE already loaded with great talent, resources, a stadium already holding 100,000K+, and it was one of the most respected programs in the land.
How on earth can you compare the first 11 years in completely OPPOSITE situations???
That makes no logical sense.
APPLES AND ORANGES.
badgerballer said:
posted on September 11, 2007 12:34 AM — 71.34.152.11 — link — abuse?
Apples and Oranges.I never quite understood this. Shouldn't it be "apples and hand grenades" or something? I mean, apples and oranges?!? Both are fruit. Both grow on trees. Both are basically round. Both are edible. Both are about the same size - baseball sized, or so. Both can be bought in the produce section of any grocery store. Both reproduce by seeds. Both are orchard/cash crops......
Why do people say this?
WVUFB97 said:
posted on September 11, 2007 12:59 AM — 208.31.208.126 — link — abuse?
???????'s
FSU Bobby Bowden loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
ND Charlie Weis loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
S. Carolina COach Steve Spurrier loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
LSU Coach Les Miles lose 2 in a row should he be fired?
UF Coach Urban Meyer loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
USC Coach Pete Carrol loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
VT Coach Frank Beamer loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
The point i would like to try and make is u can lead all of these top programs with all american players onto the field. But if these all americans dont know or have never known what its like to lose then its not something u can coach.
WVUFB97 said:
posted on September 11, 2007 1:00 AM — 208.31.208.126 — link — abuse?
???????'s
FSU Bobby Bowden loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
ND Charlie Weis loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
S. Carolina COach Steve Spurrier loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
LSU Coach Les Miles lose 2 in a row should he be fired?
UF Coach Urban Meyer loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
USC Coach Pete Carrol loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
VT Coach Frank Beamer loses 2 in a row should he be fired?
The point i would like to try and make is u can lead all of these top programs with all american players onto the field. But if these all americans dont know or have never known what its like to lose then its not something u can coach.
WVUFB97 said:
posted on September 11, 2007 1:12 AM — 208.31.208.126 — link — abuse?
Post 69! Calm down! Dont give anybody anymore ideas about our Coach go find ur own. Look down in C-USA or Hell! WHy not hire one that just got finished beating u in ur own stadium.
Coach Rod is staying! Besides why would anybody want to come to a program that would behead them before they even got their feet wet?
gatorhippy
posted on September 11, 2007 8:01 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
FirstnNole (#78):
Michigan's win percentage prior to 1995: .742
Since Carr took over in 1995: .758
So in reality, Carr has actually fared better than his predecessors IMPROVING Michigan football not just maintaining the program...
Same as Bobby did at FSU (.531/.697)...
Again, Carr has maintained Michigan's stature in CFB...
And accomplished more in his first eleven years than Bowden...
No offense, Nole...
But even Bobby has admitted that without probation periods at Florida and Miami in the mid-eighties and into the ninties that his Nole program never would have had the run it did...
As we are beginning to see now...
Again...
If you think Carr should be fired, you would have had to feel the same about Bowden after his first eleven...
1st_and_NOLE
posted on September 11, 2007 8:22 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy #84:
Again, you're comparing two completely different situations. Not to mention, you're taking lightly the phrase...
"Carr has actually fared better than his predecessors IMPROVING Michigan football not just maintaining the program..."
That's highly debatable. There's a lot more to maintaining a big time program like Michigan then simply winning %.
Top programs like Michigan place a lot of value on beating their most bitter rivals, like OSU - in which Carr has struggled mightily as of late. Michigan has lost 4 in a row dating back to last year. They've suffered their most embarrassing loss in school history to a 1AA program, followed by another huge embarrassment in Oregon only a week later. Michigan doesn't even look competitive out there.
So it's much more then a few percentage points. Which I might add, aren't even that impressive in the case of Carr. I mean, going by your stats (I'm not going to verify, just take your word) Carr only improved a tremendous program with EVERY resource by 1.6% - not mind blowing. Certainly, you can't base your entire case on 1.6% improvement - what is that? Is that a quarter of football improvement per year??? I mean, you're claiming 1.6% increase is "IMPROVING Michigan football" despite the fact they've lost regularly to OSU, haven't won the B10 in a few years, and are being embarrassed @ home.
Going by you're theory of winning %...
Florida's winning % before Ron Zook was 0.616 and while Zook was there he won 0.662 so Ron Zook was actually better by 4.6%. Yet, I'm guessing you weren't crying foul when he was fired...
gatorhippy
posted on September 11, 2007 8:41 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
firstnNole (#85):
"despite the fact they've lost regularly to OSU, haven't won the B10 in a few years, and are being embarrassed @ home."
And by using your logic...
Bowden again should have been fired given that he was unsuccessful at beating Florida regularly and only took his team to two major bowls in his first eleven years...
Again the situations are not as dissimiliar as you are making them...
Bottom line...
Carr has essentailly fared no worse or better than other Wolvie coaches and has actually fared better in his first eleven years than some "revered" legendary coaches...
All without prior HC experience...
1st_and_NOLE
posted on September 11, 2007 9:02 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy #86:
LOL
It's pretty obvious you're ONLY goal is to try to make this about Bobby Bowden. I didn't even MENTION him in my last post yet... you couldn't resist bringing him back into it.
Ok gatorhippy, if you think taking over an established, historical, storied program, with more NC's when Carr got there then FSU & UF have COMBINED today, and more everything is comparable to taking over a dump of a program that was FSU... then you go ahead and keep thinking that. There's NOTHING logical about what you're claiming with their situations being similar. That's completely false. But, you won't listen to reason. So, continue thinking that but I'm done debating that aspect of the argument with you because you're not being reasonable. So, if you want to keep bringing up Bowden, go ahead and get the last word in LOL.
As to the rest of the argument, with Bowden aside, you completely dodge the rest of my post for some odd reason...
"That's highly debatable. There's a lot more to maintaining a big time program like Michigan then simply winning %.
Top programs like Michigan place a lot of value on beating their most bitter rivals, like OSU - in which Carr has struggled mightily as of late. Michigan has lost 4 in a row dating back to last year. They've suffered their most embarrassing loss in school history to a 1AA program, followed by another huge embarrassment in Oregon only a week later. Michigan doesn't even look competitive out there.
So it's much more then a few percentage points. Which I might add, aren't even that impressive in the case of Carr. I mean, going by your stats (I'm not going to verify, just take your word) Carr only improved a tremendous program with EVERY resource by 1.6% - not mind blowing. Certainly, you can't base your entire case on 1.6% improvement - what is that? Is that a quarter of football improvement per year??? I mean, you're claiming 1.6% increase is "IMPROVING Michigan football" despite the fact they've lost regularly to OSU, haven't won the B10 in a few years, and are being embarrassed @ home.
Going by you're theory of winning %...
Florida's winning % before Ron Zook was 0.616 and while Zook was there he won 0.662 so Ron Zook was actually better by 4.6%. Yet, I'm guessing you weren't crying foul when he was fired..."
Care to respond to that without trying to bring Bowden back into it???
I mean, isn't this a completely hypocritical argument from you given the fact Zook did better then the program's history, yet he was fired??? He actually did BETTER percentage points wise then Carr yet you were thrilled Zook was fired. Yet, you're fighting for Carr by all means possible. Seems a bit odd to me.
The Mayor said:
posted on September 11, 2007 9:33 AM — 71.198.33.153 — link — abuse?
Tomcat,
Thanks for the kudos. It was a great game from a Green and Yellow point of view. According to the press and many bloggers, Michigan lost the game rather than Oregon winning the game.
It was worth the 10 hour round trip on Northwest in a middle seat to Ann Arbor.
By the way, the fans at the Big House were very cordial and treated us Ducks with a lot of class. It was disappointing to hear the boo birds turn on the Blue and Maize though, this is college ball, not the NFL.
The Big House was a great time but definitely in need of a face lift. Scoreboards are ancient and hard to see. Even with 109,000+ people, the place never gets as loud as Autzen Stadium in Eugene, the acoustics are lousy.
Good luck Big Blue against the Irish this weekend in the battle of freshman quarterbacks.
I say give Lloyd Carr until season's end to turn it around.
gatorhippy
posted on September 11, 2007 10:03 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
1nNole (#87):
"That's highly debatable. There's a lot more to maintaining a big time program like Michigan then simply winning %."
You're right...
Like continuing a winning tradition, winning national championships, and producing award winning football players...
All of which Carr has done...
Read the posts, Nole...
In post #84, I pointed out that the important ideal here was the maintainence of the win percentage at Mich. not the improvement...
Sorry, if you din't pick that out of there...
"yet you were thrilled Zook was fired."
Do you know me?
How would you know how I felt about Zook?
Since you inquire (read: "assume") though...
I feel Ron Zook did get a raw deal with a midseason firing and that he was doomed from the moment he was hired because of his history at UF...
Being UF alumni, I was actually a bit embarrassed by the way it was handled...
But even then, let's compare Lloyd and Ron at the three year mark since you bring Zook up...
Did Zook win a MNC in his third year as HC?
Carr did...
Did Zook win his first three games over his team's biggest rival?
Carr did...
Did Zook have a winning record against his school's three biggest rivals (UT, UGA, FSU) after year three?
Carr did...
Did Zook position his team for major bowl at least once in three years?
Carr did...
Did Zook win a conference title in his three years?
Carr did...
Did Zook have his teams finish in the AP top twenty in all three years?
Carr did...
Gatorpilot said:
posted on September 11, 2007 12:26 PM — 71.42.27.135 — link — abuse?
I don't think Miles would go to Michigan unless LSU's season turns out to be a big disappointment (and then maybe Michigan won't want him.) He has such a ridiculously fertile recruiting base at LSU and if he keeps it up he will keep winning there without changing much.
It's like Urban Meyer when he had the opportunity to return to Notre Dame as a father-savior figure vs. go somewhere he'd never been, Florida. Afterward he was asked about the decision. Although he kept his own counsel for the most part, he finally cracked and held up two fingers. "Two years," he said. "Two years. That's how long you get. Not five. I'm not the smartest guy around, but I'm smart enough to know that."
Clearly he felt he could win faster at Florida than he could at Notre Dame. And obviously, he was right -- in a big way.
Miles can win today -- not two or three years from now -- at LSU. And the Big 10 as we all know is a weak conference, and he'll struggle far more recruiting up there.
He has the nation's best athletes in his back yard. He'd be a fool to leave.
M GO BLUE said:
posted on September 11, 2007 12:45 PM — 216.46.213.3 — link — abuse?
After the Ohio State loss last season, Carr should have prepared his defense to defend the spread, but he did'nt.........we thought he would be prepared against USC.........but he did'nt prepare to defend...........THIS SEASON WE ALL THOUGHT HE WOULD HAVE LEARNED TO D.E.F.E.N.D. THE S.P.R.E.A.D.
But he did'nt.............I actually thought he would have come up with something for the Oregon game.............(I am sooooooo stupid)
GIVE ME ONE REASON WHY I SHOULD EXPECT CARR TO CHANGE...........HE HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE HE COACHED HIS FIRST GAME...........HE'S A GOOD COACH??????? I SHOULD BE CONTENT TO HAVE HIM COACH MY TEAM??????? Does a good coach lose three consecutive games for the same reason and then coach a fourth game the same way he coached the first?????? NO.
I will never trust Carr again as long as he is coach at Michigan, because he has shown that he will not change even when change is needed, he really does not put his full effort into coaching every game, because if he did I would have seen something different out of Michigan last saturday........they may have still lost the game.......but if us fans could see the coaches making changes......and trying to make something happen.......
There is no hope that the coaches will adapt..........they are old school........and these DOGS will not learn new tricks.
Sorry Carr..........the rest of college football has sprinted past you.........and you make no effort to catch up.
Go Blue
posted on September 11, 2007 3:00 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Marko #70: Eleven NCs for Michigan? Can you list the years for me so I can pick your facts apart? Remember, Alabama's kool-aid is red, Michigan's is blue. Michigan has 3 legitimate titles and 4 back-dated titles; so they have exactly 3!
In spite of Michigan's bad start, don't be prone to embellish their past accomplishments in order to make yourself feel better...
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on September 11, 2007 3:05 PM — 71.103.225.30 — link — abuse?
No way! Can't fire Lloyd Carr. I think we're dealin' with the ghost of Bo Schembechler here. Michigan has lost four straight games since his death. I don't know what to make of it, but I think, there may be something to it. That was a tough loss to Ohio State last year, just after Bo's death, and then the blowout against Southern Cal - which really wasn't that shameful. Somehow there has been some disappointment carried over from last season's letdown. They were overhyped last year anyway. Oregon is a very good team with a practically unstoppable offense. I'd like to see Oregon play Oklahoma again right now. Appalachian State is the Division II Champions and much better than many Division I teams. Michigan just got caught. They'll hammer Notre Dame this coming weekend - even if Henne does not play. Go Blue!
Tommie T
William said:
posted on September 11, 2007 4:31 PM — 70.58.180.165 — link — abuse?
I will probably get shot for saying this, but Michigan does not have a good history of hiring coaches. Carr, Moeller, and Bo are all way to conservative. Bo was awesome, but we also could have had many more National Titles if he was not always only playing for the Big Ten Championship. The bottom line is that Michigan like the Big Ten in general has lost a grip on today's game, which is about speed. You can no longer go after 260lb linebackers and expect them to be able to cover QB's and RB's that are running 4.3 40's. Carr is a horrible coach. I have been wanting him to go for a long, long time. I am amazed that it had to come to losing to a 1AA school for big blue fans to realize this. You would think the crummy record againest OSU, in bowl games, and only one National Title even though Michigan has been ranked preseason in the Top 10 more than in other school during Carr's tenure would be the real reason fans want him out. It is time to Go.
Ann Arbor needs a coach who can recruit, who understands how to attack, and not another BO Disciple! It is time to go outside of the FRATERNITY!gatorhippy
posted on September 11, 2007 5:28 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
This whole discussion is bringin me around to another idea...
Could Michigan be the next Alabama?
Proud program reduced to mediocrity by the inability to shake the shadow of its past iconic coach...
Or are we saving that distinction for FSU?
Rammer Jammer said:
posted on September 11, 2007 6:07 PM — 199.89.170.92 — link — abuse?
Gator Hippy #97
I hope for the sake of Michigan fans that they are not the next Alabama.
However, I disagree with your statement: "Proud program reduced to mediocrity by the inability to shake the shadow of its past iconic coach..."
I would say it should have been written: Proud program reduced to below average, by the inablity to control rogue boosters, corrupt coaches, and poor AD decisions.I still don't understand why everybody on the outside of the UofA football, blames the shadow of Paul Bryant for the Tide taking a tumble.
What does a coach who has been removed from a team for more than 20 years have to do with the demise of an entire football program? And lets not forget, 12 years or so after he retired;the UofA won a NC. So it's obvious the Bear's shadow had nothing to do with it.
I just get tired of hearing that AL fans need to get over the fact that Bear Bryant is gone. The only people who need to get over the fact that the Bear is gone is Non Alabam fans. We are not the ones harping over the fact the he is gone. It's people like you who make those assertions.
BTW- Good luck with TN this week. I hope the Gators blow them out.
Roll Tide
Tom Blogical
posted on September 11, 2007 8:26 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy #77, etc.:
Good points, but I'm not sure why you included me in the argument concerning Bowden's record vs. Carr's record. I could care less about the records, my point was that Carr has lost control of his team. If they fail to play for him against ND, or if they quit in the face of adversity against ND as they did for the most part against Oregon, then I think he should be canned.
I don't see any positives in keeping a coach that can't get his players excited enough to play through an entire football game. If Michigan loses to Notre Dame Saturday, the entire state will either forget all about Michigan State and John L. Smith, or there will be endless comparisons between the two coaches and programs.
FSU's players are still on Bowden's bandwagon, so that's why I think the situations are entirely different.
Cape Cod Tom '84 Rutgers said:
posted on September 11, 2007 9:04 PM — 24.60.228.158 — link — abuse?
Michigan and ND will go back and forth this week, but in the end, Mighigan will win by 3 points. Next year wii be different. Next year, ND will kick some Wolverene ass.
Though 2007 is Michigan's year over ND, has anyone seen the recruits Cheeseburger has signed for 2008? ND is going to be a powerhouse over the next 4 years. With those recruits, ND should win a national chapionship, easliy.
Cheeseburger seems to have a lot of clout.
VolFan said:
posted on September 12, 2007 4:03 AM — 71.203.233.142 — link — abuse?
Reading this blog has made me wonder if expectations might not be a bit to high in the realm of the "top tier" programs. College football would be really boring if only a handful of teams ever competed for the NC. Most everyone other than sooner fans loved to see Boise St. pull off the upset. Most everyone not a Michigan fan has been thrilled to see them upset. It happens to everyone now and then,and it's what makes CF so much fun! It just sucks when it's your team losing. Believe me, as a vol fan I know. Try enduring a losing season.
The fact that Michigan has such an outstanding program and proud history is exactly why it's fans are so upset. The bigger you are the harder you fall.
With or without Carr Michigan will compete at the highest level again, and it will be all the sweeter because of the pain you feel now.
Carr, like our Fulmer, should probably be replaced to move the program forward. I think they and their staffs have been passed by. I don't see anything to be gained in doing it before the season is over though.
Tomcat said:
posted on September 12, 2007 5:28 AM — 69.148.173.234 — link — abuse?
#88 Mr Mayor Wow thats gotta be something to witness your team win in that environment.Sorry I didnt get to see the game-loved the highlights BTW.That offense with Dixon will win some games.
Have to agree with TommieT would love to see another OU vs UO rematch.Good luck with the Bulldogs, I watched the Aggie game, A&M dominated the 1st half then it went back & forth forever.
What happened to the Mighty Beavers?
#101 Vol Fan I agree with the first paragraph
As fans we love to see upsets
Bois St over OU
App St over Mich
TCU over OU
TTech over OU
I just wish I could have been in Waco in 2004 when Baylor beat Texas A&M they tore down the goalposts and carried them across town. To me as a fan thats what we like to see.
BTW loved that 06 Louis vs RU game too those NJ folks swarming on the feild like a bunch of ants
Hookem-Horns
Any time OU gets beat its fun to watchgatorhippy
posted on September 12, 2007 8:00 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
It's good to see that at least in the Michigan administration, cooler heads are prevailing...
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/2007-09-09-michigan-ad-carr_N.htm
gatorhippy
posted on September 12, 2007 8:09 AM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
Tom B (#99):
Are you new to sports or something?
Teams have trouble getting it together all time and visibly under-acheive...
I think the bigger issue here is the fact that if the Wolvies do fire Carr in midseason...
Who is going to replace him?
Obviously, if the Mich players aren't getting up for Carr, then logically they aren't getting up for the assistants either...
So you replace Carr with another guy who won't be able to get the kids fired up...
As far as FSU and Bowden...
Those kids haven't been buying into bowden for near twenty years...
They have been buying into Bobby's assistants...
Tom Blogical
posted on September 12, 2007 11:25 AM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy (#104):
"Are you new to sports or something?"
LOL, hardly. I'm not new to sports, but you certainly must be if you can't separate under-achievement from a team-wide lack of effort and the will to play. That goes for the rest of your comment.
I'll say it one more time. Michigan's players gave up and stopped playing. They. Stopped. Playing. That's not under-achieving. That's called a head coach losing control of the team. The Oregon players said the same thing (about them giving up) after the game. You must be new to sports if you think quitting during a game is "under-achieving".
"Who is going to replace him? Obviously, if the Mich players aren't getting up for Carr, then logically they aren't getting up for the assistants either...So you replace Carr with another guy who won't be able to get the kids fired up..."
Who cares who the interim coach is? If, as I said before, they give up and/or stop playing when faced with adversity against ND, then their season is trashed anyway. All the assistants are history after the season when the new coach comes in anyhow, and they know it. This is the way of life in coaching. Hell, Carr has been delegating most of his responsibilities to DeBord, English and the rest of the assistants anyhow.
So, the program gets the jump on the silly season and the already jittery recruits and their handlers see that change is on the way.
"Those kids haven't been buying into bowden for near twenty years...They have been buying into Bobby's assistants..."
Thank you for helping me make my point. They're still sold on the long term goals of the program. Michigan's kids, unless proven otherwise this Saturday, are not.
gatorhippy
posted on September 12, 2007 12:11 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
Tom B (#106):
Underacheiving, giving up and quitting are all in the same basket...
However, while it is the coach's job to motivate and prepare...
The players have to play the game, Tom...
You can't peg lack of effort on the coach...
In the end, the guys on the field have to reach down and find it in their gut...
I'm thinking in the end that Carr has been preaching this, especially last week, and the players simply still didn't take it to heart, believed the hype and half assed it...
Simple as that...
As far as this statement..."Hell, Carr has been delegating most of his responsibilities to DeBord, English and the rest of the assistants anyhow."
Allow me the reciprocation of thanking YOU for proving MY point...
So maybe the problem here isn't Carr then...
Maybe it's the assistants not properly preparing and firing up the Wolvie kids...
Maybe Carr needs to just shake up his staff ala FSU...
Again, another glaring similarity to the FSU situation proven by your own thinking and statement...
Carr deserves it...
His record with and loyalty to the Michigan program demand it...
He has started 0-2 before and rallied his kids around to win the B-10...
After the season, yes, fire away if it looks bad...
But not after two games...
You don't treat an employee of nearly thirty years that way...
Just as FSU has not...
Just as PSU has not...
Just as Grambling didn't...
As far as proving your point with FSU...
I believe it was just confirmed by Decody Fagg that he has not been putting his full effort forward...
FSU assistants saying they need a better effort...
The last two games I've watched the Noles play has looked like a bunch of guys going through the motions with little inspired play with the exception of spurts here and there for a quarter...
Maybe those kids aren't buying into it as much as we have thought afterall, Tom...
Even after the staff shake up...
Tom Blogical
posted on September 12, 2007 12:59 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy (#107):
"Allow me the reciprocation of thanking YOU for proving MY point..."
LOL! Yep, all good points, but you and I don't share the same opinion.
Another difference I'd like to point out between Michigan and Florida State is, Michigan was ranked number 5 in the nation, and had aspirations of beating OSU, winning their bowl game and winning the MNC. In two weeks, they've managed to lose to a Div. I-AA school (yes, they're the best Div. I-AA school, but I-AA school nonetheless) and laid a giant egg on the field against Oregon. Two teams they were "supposed" to swat like flies fairly easily. So...from number 5 and MNC title hopes to the prospect of possibly not even getting to a bowl game. I don't think FSU had the same expectations going in, nor did they have such a cataclysmic fall from grace.
Now, allow me to reciprocate one of your lines right back at you:
"Well, that's the premise of premiere level D-1 Bowl disvision BCS CFB...
Opinion..."(:-D)
gatorhippy
posted on September 12, 2007 1:07 PM — 70.121.185.56 — link — abuse? said:
Tom B (#108):
Sure, there are fine points that differ but expectations of the program in general and the impression of MNC competitiveness surrounding both sets of fans is no different in Tallahassee than in Ann Arbor...
However, I agree that we could go round and round for days on end with this subject...
Since it is all based on opinion as is the rest of CFB...
Tom Blogical
posted on September 12, 2007 1:36 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy (#107)
Couple other things, I also think there is a huge difference between someone not giving enough effort, and someone going through the motions. As an athlete, I know the difference. (I still have my breakaway speed at 41--LOL!!! I'm talking about staying in great shape and golf!)
Plus, I'm talking about an attitude spreading throughout the entire team. If Decody Fagg is giving 75% instead of 100%, I'd bet there's someone who will replace him that will, given that we both agree FSU's players are sold on the program, even if it does come from the assistants. At least he's giving 75%. When I say, "Michigan's players quit," that means 0% effort. Tanking the game. Not trying to win. You rarely see that anymore, but I saw them do just that last Saturday. Amazing.
And--since Michigan's assistants are running the show, why should they or the person that delegated his responsibilities to, stay? All the more reason to clean house if they get the same effort this Saturday.
Your comment about the players have to play the game sounds a lot like the John Cooper School of Coaching philosophy. We all know what happened to him. ;-)
Well, I think we've explored every nook and cranny of this topic. Is it Saturday yet?
(:-D)
Tom Blogical
posted on September 12, 2007 1:39 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse? said:
gatorhippy (#110):
Yes, I got that, I made sure I put the LOL in there! No problems here, bro!
I enjoy our discussions. Good points.
L8r.
Marko said:
posted on September 13, 2007 10:38 AM — 97.97.163.193 — link — abuse?
WarEagle:
Wins and championships* Most wins (860) and highest winning percentage (.744) in NCAA Division I-A football history
* The most conference championships of any college football program in any conference (42)
* The most winning seasons (109)
* The most undefeated seasons in Division 1-A football (25)
* One of only two schools with a winning record against every Division 1-A conference, including independent schools such as Notre Dame.
* Michigan claims 11 national championships, among the most in college football history.
Michigan has won two wire national championships, being declared the Associated Press national champion in 1948 and 1997. Michigan claims national championships in an additional nine seasons:Year Coach Selector Record Bowl
1901 Fielding Yost Helms 11-0 Won Rose
1902 Fielding Yost Helms 11-0
1903 Fielding Yost Billingsley, National Championship Foundation 11-0-1
1904 Fielding Yost Billingsley, National Championship Foundation 10-0
1918 Fielding Yost Billingsley, National Championship Foundation 5-0
1923 Fielding Yost Billingsley, National Championship Foundation 8-0
1932 Harry Kipke Dickinson 8-0
1933 Harry Kipke Helms, Dickinson 7-0-1
1947 Fritz Crisler Helms 10-0 Won Rose
1948 Bennie Oosterbaan AP 9-0
1997 Lloyd Carr AP 12-0 Won RoseNational championships claimed 11
Those are all the reasons i want Lloyd Carr fired... he does not aim to achieve this with 3 and 4 loss seasons every year. I want more national championships and Lloyd cannot deliver.Marko said:
posted on September 13, 2007 10:42 AM — 97.97.163.193 — link — abuse?
WarEagle, here is more in case you doubted Michigan's influence and history in college football:
Scoring and schedule* The largest scoring delta (points for minus points against) in college football history
* The highest all-time strength of schedule rating in college football[3][edit] Attendance and television
* The highest NCAA home attendance every year since 1974 except 1997
* The largest stadium in the United States (Michigan Stadium, seats 107,501)
* The largest crowd to ever attend an NCAA football game: 112,118 on November 22, 2003, at Michigan Stadium vs. Ohio State
* The longest current streak of over 100,000 in attendance at home (200 games)
* The most televised school in college football history (370 televised games)[edit] Current streaks
* The longest current streak of non-losing seasons (39 seasons; 1968-present)
* The longest current bowl game streak (32 seasons; 1975-present)
* The longest current streak of games in Division 1-A since last being shutout (276 games; last time on October 20, 1984, at Iowa)[edit] Honored pageantry
* The number one sports rivalry: Michigan-Ohio State, according to ESPN's "10 Greatest Sports Rivalries"[4]
* The best helmet in football, according to ESPN's "End of Century" Special
* The best uniform in sports, according to ESPN2's 64 Team Bracket Results[5]
* The only fight song in the Hall of Fame[edit]
posted on September 13, 2007 11:54 AM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Marko: I'm well aware of Michigan's accomplishments. The subject is national championships. I looked on the offical site for Michigan but didn't see where they officially claim 11. College football data warehouse credits them with 7, but they include back-dated titles in their stats. What's a back-dated title? Glad you asked. A little history:
The AP poll debuted in 1934, took 1935 off, then has run every year since 1936. The UP poll debuted in 1935, then didn't poll again until 1950. In 1958 it became the UPI poll, which most of us remember, and it ran until 1995. By 1997, it had been supplanted by the new USA Today/ESPN poll, otherwise known as the coach's poll, which still runs today.
Prior to the AP and UPI poll debuts, there was no such thing as a national championship. By the early 1930s, sufficient interest in college football was building that people started wondering who the best team in the nation might be. Thus, the polls were born. Immediately after, some folks wondered out loud about who might have been the best teams in the seasons prior--going all the way back to the 1860s. A multitude of 'selectors' then arose, using mathematical models in an attempt to statistically calculate who the strongest team of a given year might be. These many selectors then chose who they thought might have been the 'national champion' for a given year, not always agreeing, since there were upwards of 30 or more selectors in the business after a few years.
Therefore, since a national polling system wasn't created until 1934, any claims of a national championship prior to that is most likely because some statistical selector awarded the team a 'back-dated' championship well after the fact. Some even bypassed using statistics and simply voted for teams years later. Suffice it to say that since these selectors chose sometimes decades after the fact, that their results are simply not credible. Any team that claims a back-dated title is just trying to pad the old resume.
Most of these early selectors have faded into history, although some still survive, and new ones are born every year. As long as there is subjective ambiguity in Division 1-A's football champion, these selectors will attempt to carve out their little piece of significance. Today we basically only recognize the AP and coach's polls as being legitimate. All the others run by the wayside.
As you can see, Marko, even if we use your figure of 11, 8 of them are pre-1934 and thus are back-dated titles. Three of them are legitimate, the rest are not. Even with three, Michigan has only had one NC in the last 58 years. Don't get me wrong. I like and respect Michigan, but with all those victories and records, they don't make enough of their opportunities. They remind me of the Atlanta Braves in the 90s. Always in the hunt, seldom with the prize.
Buckeye 4 Ever said:
posted on September 13, 2007 12:34 PM — 192.131.99.131 — link — abuse?
War Eagle Atlanta (#120)
I have to disagree with your analogy.
You have insulted a great man like Richard Billingsley, who has spent nearly 40 years of research to college football.
Along with many others just like him.
If Mr. Billingsley’s, Mr. Sagarin’s, etc. polls are meaningless, then why are they used in the BCS formula?
To be honest, I prefer the computers too a bunch bias coaches/writers associated to their conferences and regions.
When you have some free time, please refer to the “Official 2007 NCAA Football Record Book”, starting at page 75 through 81. http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/football_records_book/2007/2007_d1_football_records_book.pdf
If these national championships are in your words “simply not credible”, why would the NCAA publish them in their official book?
Buckeye 4 Ever said:
posted on September 13, 2007 12:35 PM — 192.131.99.131 — link — abuse?
War Eagle Atlanta (#120)
I have to disagree with your analogy.
You have insulted a great man like Richard Billingsley, who has spent nearly 40 years of research to college football.
Along with many others just like him.
If Mr. Billingsley’s, Mr. Sagarin’s, etc. polls are meaningless, then why are they used in the BCS formula?
To be honest, I prefer the computers too a bunch bias coaches/writers associated to their conferences and regions.
When you have some free time, please refer to the “Official 2007 NCAA Football Record Book”, starting at page 75 through 81. http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/football_records_book/2007/2007_d1_football_records_book.pdf
If these national championships are in your words “simply not credible”, why would the NCAA publish them in their official book?
posted on September 13, 2007 1:14 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Buckeye: Thanks for engaging me on this subject. A couple of points:
No insult intended. All I'm saying is that all other polls don't have the credibility of the two major ones as stand-alone polls. Billingsley and Sagarin may have some great mathematical modeling, that's why they're used as components for the BCS, but they just don't have the recognition of the big two.
I'm glad you bring up Billingsley. They chose Auburn as their NC in 1983. I wonder why we don't claim that on the resume? Because we only recognize the two legitimate selectors. If Auburn counted like Michigan, we could also claim 6 more in addition to our 1957 AP title--1910, 1913, 1914, 1983, 1993, 2004. Only the first three are back-dated titles. The other ones are titles awarded by minor selectors.
That's the other big issue with NC embellishment--claiming NCs awarded by a minority of these lesser selectors. Some teams claim a title for a year if only one of over 30 different selectors chose them as NC--and not one of the big two, either. Most schools do it years later, as so not to draw too much ire from others. Earlier this year, Washington came forth to claim 1960 as a NC. What complete crap! You can go back and read my posts on that thread.
Why does the NCAA publish these? Because these false claims are so rampant, and typically made by the big programs, that they probably don't have the desire to fight it. It's too common and prevalent. It's too easy to just be spoon-fed this stuff. Just keep in mind, THE NCAA HAS NEVER AWARDED A DIVISION 1-A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP TO ANY TEAM EVER. They are awarded by organizations with no offical relationship with the NCAA. It's so very subjective, but so many fans take the results as gospel, and it just ain't so, bro!
Tampa Hurricane
posted on September 13, 2007 1:55 PM — 24.96.199.254 — link — abuse? said:
A lot of these post-dated championship claims are made by programs that haven't had recent success, so they had to inflate their championship numbers to look better.
At Miami we only claim 5 football national championships: 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2001.
According to the NCAA book referenced above we could be claiming: 1983, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 2000, and 2001.
Programs that claim these national championships awarded by the lesser sources should be looked down upon. If your program needs to boost their national championship numbers by claiming these than your program should be looked down upon.
If Michigan needs to update their national championship numbers everytime anyone decides to say they should have been a national champion that year, then it says a lot about the program. Lets just increase the number of our championships by accepting postdated ones because we can't win them anymore.
gatorhippy
posted on September 13, 2007 2:03 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse? said:
Can't believe I'm gonna say this, but...
Agreed, T-Cane...
That's the problem with the NCAA not stepping up and taking control of awarding the CFB NC...
Any a-hole can crown the MNC...
Seriously, folks...
Stick to the standard...
Eye of the Tiger said:
posted on September 13, 2007 2:07 PM — 138.163.0.38 — link — abuse?
Badger Ball,
Post 21, yes, I do believe this to be true. LSU played this team last year, or the year before and only beat them 24-0. This team is not a walk over. If LSU was to play them this year I don't think they would beat my Tigers, but it would probably be closer than that 24-0. Kinda scary. I'm glad we don't have to test this theory, then we'd be the big headliners as the CFB team that sux a__. Do I believe they can beat just about any team in 1A? I believe they can beat at LEAST half of 1A and give the rest hell. Ask Michigan.
posted on September 13, 2007 4:55 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Guys, the NCAA doesn't want any part of coming in and regulating what is and what isn't a NC. The passions just run too deep. they could possibly START doing it, but they wouldn't dare do it retroactively.
Any Alabama fan can tell you that they've had 12 NCs, but none of them know that one of those, in 1941, the team lost two games and was ranked 20th in the final AP poll.
When Washington claimed the bogus title this spring, I did the research to try and decipher who were the big liars when it came to claiming NCs. Here was my post on that thread:
**********************************************Here is the list of teams who embellish their claimed national championships and who does not. The information I use to compile this ranking is from the college football data warehouse.com and I use the following assumptions:
1) Only current Division 1-A teams who claim 3 or more NCs
2) Only AP championships (1934, 1936-present) UP championships (1935, 1950-1957) UPI championships (1958-1995) USA Today/ESPN championships (1997-present) and BCS championships (1998-present) are counted. However, prior to 1950, when the AP and UP polls ran concurrently, I will accept a preponderance of the other selectors.
3) No back-dated championships (anything before 1934)
SURVEY SAYS:
Notre Dame, 12 NCs claimed, 1924, 1929, 1930, 1943, 1946, 1947, 1949, 1953, 1966, 1973, 1977, 1988. First three titles back-dated, 1953 illegitimate. Real total, 8 NCs. Real shabby!
Alabama, 12 NCs claimed, 1925, 1926, 1930, 1934, 1941, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1973, 1978, 1979, 1992. First 3 titles back-dated, 1934 and 1941 titles illigetimate. Real total, 7 NCs. Shabby, too.
USC, 10 NCs claimed, 1928, 1931, 1932, 1962, 1967, 1972, 1974, 1978, 2003, 2004. First 3 titles back-dated, all the rest legitimate. Real total, 7 NCs. Other than back-dated, not bad.
Michigan, 7 NCs claimed, 1901, 1902, 1923, 1933, 1947, 1948, 1997. First 4 titles back-dated, the rest legitimate. Talk about peaking in the first half of the last century...
Oklahoma, 7 NCs claimed, 1950, 1955, 1956, 1974, 1975, 1985, 2000. All legitimate! Solid!
Minnesota, 6 NCs claimed, 1934, 1935, 1936, 1940, 1941, 1960 All legit! What have you done for us lately, though?
Pittsburgh, 6 NCs claimed, 1910, 1916, 1918, 1936, 1937, 1976. First 3 titles back-dated, 1936 illigitimate, other 2 fine. 66% of your titles imagined? Say it ain't so, Tony D!
Miami, 5 NCs claimed, 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991, 2001. All legit. You lucked out in 1983, getting picked over a more deserving Auburn team!
Nebraska, 5 NCs claimed, 1970, 1971, 1994, 1995, 1997. All legit. Solid!
Ohio State, 5 NCs claimed, 1942, 1954, 1957, 1968, 2002. All legit. Solid!
Army, 4 NCs claimed, 1914, 1944, 1945, 1946. First is back-dated, the rest legit. Boy, the cadets need another world war to dominate again...
GA Tech, 4 NCs claimed, 1917, 1928, 1952, 1990. First 3 titles back-dated, 1990 legit. "I'm a ramblin' wreck from Georgia Tech and a helluva embellisher..."
Illinois, 4 NCs claimed, 1914, 1919, 1923, 1927. All back-dated! Get the f*** outta here, losers. However, the Ron Zook era has arrived...
Tennessee, 4 NCs claimed, 1938, 1950, 1951, 1998. 1938 and 1950 illigitimate, the rest legit. Whatta think your Alabama???
Texas, 4 NCs claimed, 1963, 1969, 1970, 2005, all legit! Somebody go thank Darryl Royal in his nursing home!
California, 3 NCs claimed, 1920, 1921, 1922. All back-dated! WTF? See Illinois...
Michigan State, 3 NCs claimed, 1952, 1965, 1966. 1966 is illigitimate, although you probably got hosed!
There you have it! I'm sure some of you are going to be real upset that I've disrupted the gospel you've been preaching for so long. Put down the cup of Kool-Aid and let me have it. I'm ready to debate.
M GO BLUE said:
posted on September 14, 2007 2:34 PM — 216.46.213.24 — link — abuse?
Why should we can Carr right now??????? I will tell you............BACAUSE HE'S TRASHING MY FAVORITE TEAM !!!!! THAT'S WHY.
You think recruits are going to de-commit to Michigan because Carr is gone ?????? aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh HOW STUPID !!!
posted on September 15, 2007 11:49 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
C-Dogg: Nah, I'm just a sports genious. :-)Those numbers are available to anyone at the 'college football data warehouse'. I just spent the time looking up the cfbdw recognized NCs and verifying their source, all on the site.
I wrote that post back in April, after Washington decided to claim a NC 47 years after the fact.
posted on September 15, 2007 12:08 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
T-Cane: Hey, my little comments after each team's total is what makes it more interesting!
1983 was a banner year for national champions. 46 different selectors chose 5 different champions. Here's the break-down by number:
Auburn 18 selectors
Nebraska 13
Miami 13
Clemson 1
Georgia 1But Miami got the only two that count, the AP and the UPI. So in my little world, they were and are the 1983 NCs. Please know this though:
There are so many teams out there that claim their national championships based on a lesser preponderance of selectors than what Auburn and Nebraska exhibited in 1983. And over time, what these teams 'claim' tends to become 'fact' and accepted as gospel by their minions.
There just should be some common standard adopted by the NCAA in choosing champions of years gone by, but there never will be. These days, you can't get away with it because there's way too much scrutiny. Three selectors chose Auburn in 2004, all minor ones. Had Auburn stepped forth at the time and said "we're the NCs, too," people would have shouted them down, and rightfully so. But the trend in the past has been for that team to wait a few years, then claim the title. No one's around to argue, and then you know the old adage, "a lie unanswered becomes fact."
Where did Marko and Buckeye 4ever go?
FireThatGuy said:
posted on September 15, 2007 1:23 PM — 74.166.152.249 — link — abuse?
It's time to get rid of Lloyd Carr. Get an awesome Fire Lloyd Carr t-shirt now!
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1st_and_NOLE
said:
posted on September 9, 2007 9:09 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?YES!!! He's lost complete control of the situation. This has gotten out of hand.
They need a change, they need a fresh start.
Lookout LSU, they're coming after Les Miles and I think he'll go to Michigan.