January 30, 2008
Does a coach-in-waiting do more harm than good?
One of the big trends in college football seems to be a rush to name a replacement head coach prior to the departure of the school's current head coach. During the past two months, we've seen three BCS conference teams name a "coach-in-waiting" - Florida State, Kentucky, and Purdue.
At Florida State and Kentucky, the deals are relatively open-ended. Neither Bobby Bowden nor Rich Brooks have publicly indicated when they will retire. Their coaches-in-waiting -- Jimbo Fisher and Joker Phillips, respectively -- are signed to contracts that promise them the position at some as of yet undetermined date. And if that doesn't come to pass, the coaches-in-waiting receive a large payout. It is a true "transition plan" approach.
At Purdue, the situation is much more finite. 2008 will be Joe Tiller's last season as head coach. Danny Hope will be the Boilermakers head coach in 2009. The certainty of Tiller's retirement makes Purdue's situation a "planned transition".
The proponents of the coach-in-waiting idea (and -- for now-- I fall into this category) point out the stability that comes from such a plan. The coach-in-waiting can take an active role in helping to shape the future roster and schemes for the program, while continuing to learn under the tutiledge of a seasoned coach.
At a minimum, the plan successfully insulates the team from potential negative recruiting that comes with an aging head coach. Florida State, for example, can give recruits assurances of what will happen when Bowden retires. The Seminoles can now recruit with the promise that athletes will get the opportunity to play under Bowden as well as point to Fisher's plans for the future of the program.
More importantly, the coach-in-waiting approach allows schools to retain their top coaching talent. By clearly defining a career path, a school gets the benefit of growing their "hot" assistant rather than potentially losing him and working through a coaching vacancy. This was clearly a factor at Florida State - much more so than at either Purdue or Kentucky (although Phillips would surely been a hot name if he were not "locked in" with the Wildcats).
But having a plan doesn't always ensure a smooth transition.
Paul Finebaum of the Mobile Register rightly points to what I'll call the "mommy-daddy" effect. Under a two-leader system, players (and even assistant coaches) have/can/will play one coach off of another. If the head coach's answer doesn't sit right with a disgruntled player/coach, he can always shop for a second opinion with the coach-in-waiting. This can lead to infighting and dissension, as with the 1975 Auburn Tigers.
Auburn tried this more than 30 years ago with Shug Jordan and it was a disaster. Before his final season in 1975, the school named one of his assistants, Doug Barfield (over another Jordan assistant), to take over the following year. The Tigers went from a 10-2 record (and No. 6 ranking) in 1974 to a humiliating 3-6-2 record. The confusion on the sidelines and the infighting behind the scenes caused Auburn to get off to an 0-3-1 start to the season. The final game was a 28-0 beating at the hands of Alabama.
However, preventing situations like what transpired is certainly possible. For ever poor Auburn transition, there's a positive hand-over like the one that took place most recently at Wisconsin. Head coach Barry Alvarez was able to mentor coach-in-waiting Bret Bielema before turning over the reigns. This just shows that it has and can work in the right environment.
More to the point, it is clearly the expectation at all three schools that the situation will be handled correctly. The transition requires high levels of respect, professionalism, and -- perhaps most importantly -- communication. Just as the "mommy" and "daddy" need to be on the same page when speaking to the "kids", the head coach and coach-in-waiting must speak with one voice.
But it's not just internal problems that can unravel a coach-in-waiting plan, there are plenty of external factors that upset the transition.
If the team isn't being successful with the "old" coach at the helm, how quickly will fans clamor for the "new" coach to take over? Or -- even worse -- how much pressure will boosters apply to fire both coaches and look outside the program for a new head coach? If a hot name is available when the "old" coach retires, will the masses push the school to abandon the coach-in-waiting and pursue a "sexier" hire?
I think each school's situation is unique and has to be viewed as such. I think we're starting to see a trend taking place, and you may see more assistants being named coach-in-waiting at premiere schools. I don't think it is unrealistic to see something in the works at Penn State and Virginia, but also down the road at Tennessee, Texas, and perhaps even Virginia Tech.
What works at Purdue may not work at Penn State. The right decision at FSU may not be the best course at USF. (Ditto for UK and KU.) For these three schools, the future is now. Time will tell if the coach-in-waiting rewards outweigh the risks.
Comments:
TE
posted on January 30, 2008 3:20 PM — 204.68.245.11 — link — abuse?
said:
Lance Thompson was jawwing to recruits that there were "three big names" he was talking about...
This guy's spent two years as an OC, at two different places, and was a member of two straight staffs who were canned...
...and Oakland finished dead last in passer efficiency when he left...
Now, how much of Fresno's offense was this guys, and how much was Pat Hill's?
Also...Doesn't this guy throw the ball around a lot? Why the heck would you let Major Applewhite go when he does the same thing? You lose a name coach with results at a decent school who did good things with a team that he didn't recruit, who had made some inroads recruiting already, and who provides for more year-to-year continuity?
What exactly are the positive aspects of this, and what was so bad about Major?
TE
posted on January 30, 2008 8:55 PM — 69.2.54.228 — link — abuse? said:
Bevo,
From what I've heard, it was an amalgamation of Pendry's offense with very few-if any-spread schemes. Applewhite ran a spread offense, and they made him run something completely different, and call plays for it, then called him out for it...
Who would want to remain in that situation? Different players that you didn't recruit running an offense that's not yours, that you don't like, and then you taking the blame since you have to call the plays for it and them?
It wouldn't exactly make me want to be the first one in the office on Monday mornings...
Bevo Boy said:
posted on January 30, 2008 9:21 PM — 207.200.116.5 — link — abuse?
Not to mention Saban didn't exactly try to keep it a secret that Applewhite wasn't his first choice to fill the spot. (You said you're from a real redneck spot, right? How did you learn a fancy word like amalgamation?) Just kiddin' with that last part.
TE
posted on January 30, 2008 9:45 PM — 69.2.54.228 — link — abuse? said:
I'm a "Peckerwood Machiavellian"...
I'm from one of the most "redneck" areas of Louisiana...Ask anyone about, "The Free Republic of Livingston Parish" and look for their response...
Back in the days before statehood, the border between the US & the "Florida Parishes" which was actually territory of Spain and "The Floridas" was the line between Livingston & what is now East Baton Rouge Parish...
Outlaws would run to the Piney Woods that are Livingston Parish, my home...They knew the US couldn't pursue them, there...
All the longest tenured families-and some of the most fiercely independent individuals to be found in our Union-here in the Parish can trace their roots back somewhat like the original descendants in Austrailia, who emigrated over from England due to "credit" or "legal" issues back in the day...
Bevo Boy said:
posted on January 30, 2008 9:50 PM — 207.200.116.5 — link — abuse?
Wow, wasn't exactly expecting a history lesson (quite a bit shorter than many of your posts, though not exactly short), but it was interesting, at least I think it was. Did you just happen to remember that off the top of your head, or did you do some digging into your heritage or something?
T-Mac
posted on January 30, 2008 10:23 PM — 66.78.139.117 — link — abuse? said:
TE, post 11.
You say you are a "Peckerwood Machiavellian"...
That is hilarious brother.
T-Mac is just a plain "Peckerwood"...
At least thats what T-Mac's ex-girlfriend's have said.
Shout out to all the Doggs on Fanblogs.
Bring it on home on Sunday Eli!!!
T-Mac has to go shave his head.
T-Mac will post when he can.
*T-Mac approved this message.
Big Tide said:
posted on January 31, 2008 8:23 AM — 69.34.227.69 — link — abuse?
TE #4 I was hoping you could help me fill in the blanks. I got six emails yesterday and I still don't have a clear picture. Guess we just have to trust that Nick knows something about this guy that we don't. Might be that we've spent so much on Nick that we don't have anything left for a decent OC? I was kind of hoping BB would go ahead and retire and FSU you move into the post BB blues phase and fire Jimbo and he would come on up to Tuscaloosa for a family reunion of sorts. Any coach that replaces a legend gets three seasons tops but I'm not real sure when you start counting if the HC is still around in a wheelchair or maybe on a ventilator?
TE
posted on January 31, 2008 11:09 AM — 204.68.245.11 — link — abuse? said:
Yeah, I got some VERY unimpressive stats off of this guy's resume the other day that I'll post shortly...But he is not a world beater...
Then again, Jimbo Fisher had done nothing other than develop some decent QB's and put together one decent season as a coordinator at Cincy before Saban found him and gave him the nod...
That worked out okay...
I just don't see with the money he threw around at his staff coming in, and the alleged prestige of the program and the head man, how you couldn't find anyone else?
Well, then again, I do...and Bama fans, you guys simply don't want to hear this, but it's the truth...
The tarnish is starting to wear off on that program...The fact is, you'll really only find guys that want to reinvent their careers after a bump in the road (See Phil Elmassian & Gary Gibbs, former Saban DC's at LSU), or younger cats who want to move up (Tim Walton, Derek Dooley, Will Muschamp)...They'll do their time, and then move on quickly (of course how quickly will depend on the level of success that Bama has, which they can hang their hat-and resume-on)...
Saban's just too abrasiave, and too demanding, to ever foster a family-oriented, cohesive chemistry that breeds continuity at the Capstone...
It can breed excellence, but its almost a drive to breed the excellence or else (or else you're stuck there, or else you answer to Saban)...and it can also breed infighting, and sometimes cancerous uprisings on the staff and the team...Witness a lot of uneasy rumors after the 2004 season of guys like both Craig Davis & Dwayne Bowe transferring, along with a significant amount of other players who were tired of the Saban act.
I'm not saying that there won't be success there. What I am saying is that you can't get used to coordinators, or assistants. Lance Thompson will be around for ages, but that's about it.
I guess having seen the difference between Saban & Miles, and realizing that we can keep it going while allowing assistants to go watch a soccer game with their kids (ala Bo Pelini), or our head coach agreeing to do live local TV remotes-from the back parking lot of the gym where his daughter's about to suit up for a Hoops Game, I would never really desire a return to what you guys are realizing you'll go through every offseason...
posted on January 31, 2008 11:36 AM — link — abuse?Kevin Donahue
said:
Is the new Bama OC the coach-in-waiting? No? OK, seems like a good topic in the open thread then.
I'm a little suprised that NO ONE has an opinion on the trend of naming a coach in waiting. Would you want one at your school? Why? Why not?
Big Tide said:
posted on January 31, 2008 11:58 AM — 69.34.227.69 — link — abuse?
First: Only a loser would agree to a coach in waiting position and only a loser program would offer it. What are you saying? Our coach is old and tired so we know we HAVE to acknowledge he is on the way out but we don't have the heart to show him the door or he doesn't have the wisdom to just do the right thing???
TE. With all due respect to you knowledge of college football, every program is just a heart beat away from having the "tarnish wear off." With the amount of parity, etc. a college can go from world beaters to middle of the road faster than Patrino can call a moving company (check Miami, FSU and Penn St. along with my Tide) but I'm still amazed at the Les Miles parade. I was in Biloxi playing poker a few weeks back and a guy calls on the flop with a small pocket pair. Every card on the board was bigger than his pair. He's got a 4% chance of catching trips on the turn or the river but keeps calling. The odds are 24:1 for those of you keeping score at home. Anyway he catching a third 3 on the river and rakes a large pot. Does that make him a good player? No, just lucky. Miles wins the NC and I have given him all his just rewards, but he was running on magic not skill during a lot of this past season. Just don't get confused. Skill beats luck over the long haul. Just my 2 cents.
posted on January 31, 2008 12:10 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Our biggest problem with the concept in the past, Kevin, was in the terminology used, not necessarily in the concept itself. 'Coach-in-Waiting' just sounds too feminine...
Perhaps it will become the trend in college football. Like the troll (Finebaum) mentions in his article, having a heir apparent is nothing new in the corporate world. Large, successful companies generally do have hand-picked successors waiting in the wings when the current CEO is ready to open his golden parachute.
Another good point that the troll makes (God, I hate saying that) is that schools have to look carefully at the cost of developing talent (coaches). The most expensive way is to go out and buy a coach on the open market who has proven himself. The cheapest way to to home-grow one yourself.
Unfortunately, just as that home-grown talent is getting ready to ripen, other schools are able and willing to pick him right off the vine before you can. How do you keep a rising star right where he is before your current HC is ready to exit stage left? You put him in the on-deck circle. That locks up this dynamic, ambitious guy and more importantly, keeps him off the open market where the demand for his services will push his price tag even higher. Problem solved!
The thing that most people don't think about is the logistics of keeping this guy in the wings. Human nature and egos being what they are, it's one of those concepts that work well in theory, but could easily end in disaster in practice.
Just wait for the fireworks one day when one of these coach bridesmaids gets jilted when it's their turn to stand at the alter...
TampaGator said:
posted on January 31, 2008 1:03 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
K-hue/#16:
I don't think it is a good idea for a number of reasons.
The primary reason to name a CIW: to give said CIW a sense of commitment, so he doesn't jump ship before the old guy leaves. While it should accomplish that objective, it also binds the program to that guy. This is problematic because there's no telling when the next hot new coach will appear on the scene who might be better qualifed than your CIW--it may happen in year the old guy steps down. If so, your program can't make a play for the guy--without getting egg on its face--because they're committed to CIW.
Also, trends change if FB. A coach may enjoy success with a system due to timing. E.g. 4-3 D was more successful than cover 2 in 80's (NFL); however, Tampa 2--being an evolution of the Steel Curtain D of the 70's (Dungy's pedigree traces back to Pittsburgh)--more successful in late 90s through today (though trend may be reversing again). Hence if your CIW has enjoyed success employing a system that enjoyed success while he was CIW, there's no guarantee that his system will continue to enjoy success--and very questionable if he can/will adapt (I know; that's NFL, but it works for illustration).
Next: CIW purports to give the program an air of stability. Problem? Old guy probably won't step down when program is enjoyng success; he'll step down after years of frustration from spinning his wheels, and finally realizing the game has passed him by. Stick with your CIW, and you communicate to potential recruits that your commited to the same mediocrity that defined your program in old coach's twilight--not his prime.
IMO: It's a short sell; a means to appease an impatient alum/booster base that compromises the future by limiting options. It's a compromise--appease your base, without canning the old guy that meant so much to the program. Simply put, the cons outweigh the pros (IMO).
...of course, if CIW turns out to be the next "old guy" in his prime--then CIW is genius; I guess only time can tell
My $.02.
GO GATORS!!TE
posted on January 31, 2008 1:38 PM — 204.68.245.11 — link — abuse? said:
BigTide,
Florida was pure guile...It wasn't luck, it was mano y mano...We lined up against there'uns, and we took our'uns, and we beat 'em...That last drive was just pure D want...and we wanted it more than Florida, and our coach knew it...
I get goosebumps just writing about that drive...A lot of people use this turn of phrase when writing about these sorts of things, and I went through my life having never witnessed one out of a team that I was a fan of, but this is simply not hyperbole...
It was a drive for the ages...
There was no craziness involved...There was no calculated gamble. Les Miles knew his team had more heart left in than Florida did. He knew his team wanted it. He had seen the crowd, the coaching staff, and his team react when Dan Borne put on the USC score in the 2nd half during that TV timeout...I have never been a part or witness something of that nature.
Now, as for the Kentucky game, I hate to say it, but we had been blowing their butts off the ball in short yardage all day. Our tight end completely whiffed on an end that pinched down, and he tripped Charles Scott up and we lost that one.
Had we not pushed a 57 yarder JUST left as time expired, we don't have to gamble there. Had Keith Zinger not shown off why his nickname should be Stonehands on that 3rd & Goal in the 4th quarter, we wouldn't have been in overtime.
Lack of execution on the players parts put Miles into situations in which he had to gamble, at least in that position.
Against Auburn, I'm sorry, but most of you simply don't want to look at the truth. There were 4 seconds left when he hit down with the ball in his hands. The timekeeper let the clock continue to click down, and replay that took place would've corrected it had not Byrd caught it. We would've had PLENTY of time to kick a game winning field goal there.
There weren't as many gambles as a lot of people here think. I honestly feel as if most here still want to discredit the guy. I watched the games and probably paid attention and broke them down more than most anyone else who doesn't watch tape for a living...and the gambles weren't as many, and weren't as reckless as many here and elsewhere find it convenient to believe.
Oh, and I agree with the skill beats luck...That was borne out in both of our two wins where our players played to their full potential...VT & OSU...
There's no doubt that we were lucky, but our skill is far superior as well...This year, we had both on our side...
Zac said:
posted on January 31, 2008 1:55 PM — 209.36.193.14 — link — abuse?
Personally, this “Coach-In-Waiting”, “Coach-On-Deck”, “Currently-Interim-HC-Soon-to-be-Announced-Some-Day-HC thing is for the birds. By the way, I don’t subscribe to doing this as a losing proposition by losers running losing programs. AND, I don’t look at Jimbo Fisher as a Coach On Deck. In my opinion, he’s more like the HC, and Bowden has been reduced to a figure head.
That having been said, I think it limits a school’s options and opens the door for other problems, which some of you have alluded to. Here are just a few examples.
A school can hire a guy, and he may have a completely different coaching philosophy with regards to offense, defense, special teams, player expectations, discipline/rewards, recruiting, etc. Eventually, he’s going to feel he can begin transitioning the program to his way of thinking, only to have the “real” HC say, “Woe, mule! I ain’t gone yet; we’re still doing things my way.”
A school can hire a guy. The real HC can take him under his wing; bring him along. Then, within 3 or 4 months of retiring, another school hires his coach-on-deck for more money than he would have made had he stayed.
After 6 months or more, the school’s AD might hate him, even though the real HC loves him, but is friends with the AD.
There could be an “understanding” that once the real HC retires, the existing staff stays, only to have the coach-on-deck fire the lot and hire a whole new staff.
The biggest thing I have against it is this: I think it limits a schools options, not to mention could inadvertently keep the right guy from being hired, as there would be neither search nor interviews of prospective candidates. This could potentially be the most damaging.
Oh yeah, one more thing. Everybody agrees; “coach-in-waiting” is a lousy name. Nobody seems to agree with what they should be called. Could cause chaos of biblical proportions. (Well, there goes my faith in the almighty.)
TampaGator said:
posted on January 31, 2008 2:38 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
TE:
"...Florida was pure guile...It wasn't luck, it was mano y mano...We lined up against there[YOUNG]'uns, and we took our [BIG]'uns, and we beat 'em...That last drive was just pure D want...and we wanted it more than Florida, and our coach knew it..." [EMPHASIS ADDED].
The only real surprise there, was that UF's yung'uns took LSU's big, bad NC seniors and juniors so deep into the 4th Quarter, at Baton Rouge (not making excuses--just pointing out that it played out as it should have).
Glad you got goosbumps over a drive that played out as expected.
...just think'n about how those young Gators took on the NC at home, and ALMOST took'em down...
...goosebumps, man!
GO GATORS!!TampaGator said:
posted on January 31, 2008 2:38 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
TE:
"...Florida was pure guile...It wasn't luck, it was mano y mano...We lined up against there[YOUNG]'uns, and we took our [BIG]'uns, and we beat 'em...That last drive was just pure D want...and we wanted it more than Florida, and our coach knew it..." [EMPHASIS ADDED].
The only real surprise there, was that UF's yung'uns took LSU's big, bad NC seniors and juniors so deep into the 4th Quarter, at Baton Rouge (not making excuses--just pointing out that it played out as it should have).
Glad you got goosbumps over a drive that played out as expected.
...just think'n about how those young Gators took on the NC at home, and ALMOST took'em down...
...goosebumps, man!
GO GATORS!!TampaGator said:
posted on January 31, 2008 2:39 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
TE:
"...Florida was pure guile...It wasn't luck, it was mano y mano...We lined up against there[YOUNG]'uns, and we took our [BIG]'uns, and we beat 'em...That last drive was just pure D want...and we wanted it more than Florida, and our coach knew it..." [EMPHASIS ADDED].
The only real surprise there, was that UF's yung'uns took LSU's big, bad NC seniors and juniors so deep into the 4th Quarter, at Baton Rouge (not making excuses--just pointing out that it played out as it should have).
Glad you got goosbumps over a drive that played out as expected.
...just think'n about how those young Gators took on the NC at home, and ALMOST took'em down...
...goosebumps, man!
GO GATORS!!Big Tide said:
posted on January 31, 2008 6:12 PM — 69.34.227.69 — link — abuse?
Divorced people rarely have anything good to say about one another. How about this TE. For the remainder of 2008 let's bury the hatchet on the "Saban sucks and we are so much better without him" soundtrack. I NEVER heard a single bad word about Saban from ANY LSU fan while the guy was coaching in Baton Rouge and winning, but now that he's not your coach any comments regarding the Tide program become a chance to get in a little dig about the man. He's hyper-competitive and if he likes McElwain or whatever his name is the guy must have something going for him? Let's just call a truce. I'll admit that you guys are the cream of the toughest division in the toughest conference in college football. Your coach knows football and has done a wonderful job. If you've got some facts to add about McElwain then I'd LOVE to hear them, but spare me the "we're so much better off now without Saban" BS because that got old last year....
Big Tide said:
posted on January 31, 2008 6:13 PM — 69.34.227.69 — link — abuse?
Divorced people rarely have anything good to say about one another. How about this TE. For the remainder of 2008 let's bury the hatchet on the "Saban sucks and we are so much better without him" soundtrack. I NEVER heard a single bad word about Saban from ANY LSU fan while the guy was coaching in Baton Rouge and winning, but now that he's not your coach any comments regarding the Tide program become a chance to get in a little dig about the man. He's hyper-competitive and if he likes McElwain or whatever his name is the guy must have something going for him? Let's just call a truce. I'll admit that you guys are the cream of the toughest division in the toughest conference in college football. Your coach knows football and has done a wonderful job. If you've got some facts to add about McElwain then I'd LOVE to hear them, but spare me the "we're so much better off now without Saban" BS because that got old last year....
posted on January 31, 2008 6:28 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
T-Gator: I know that ever since we went to this new 'movable type' thing that it's been real frustrating to try to get posts to show up. Sometimes you hit 'submit' and it just keeps chewing on it, then sometimes it comes back with an error.
What I've found is that the posting has already been sent at that point. If you copy your post (just in case) then click on home, it may already show up. If not, click on another thread, then go back to home again. Your post should be there 98% of the time. Whatever you do, don't hit submit again. That's what causes the multiple posts. If it doesn't show, then at least you copied it and don't have to recompose it.
I'm far from being the expert though. Remember, Tom Blogical had to teach me (and quite a few others) a class on how to do italics and bold print.
I still wish I knew how to do words that are crossed out--like Kevin does quite a bit. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Big Tide said:
posted on January 31, 2008 7:38 PM — 12.208.88.211 — link — abuse?
Serious Comment Time:
I think the coach in waiting is just more sad commentary on the state of our nation. Can't find anyone to actually take responsibility for anything so let's just muddy up the water. What we need are a few more layers of red tape and another vice president of something. Let's all get along and hug one another. If things don't work out there's no reason to BLAME anyone, heck no, we'll just take all the blame as a committee and then we can have another meeting and work it out or maybe we can even hire another coach that can be the assistant coach-in-waiting. That way it's more like a family thing or maybe we can do odd and even and you can be head coach on the odd game days and I can be head coach on the even? That would be fair now wouldn't it? Gentle hands, don't raise your voice.....
Give me a leader with the ability to LEAD, not stand around and do PR work or be content with a figure head position. What does this coach in waiting thing say to the players and the rest of the staff? I'm not quite ready to be head coach so Big Daddy is going to hang around until I get my training wheels off? Or is it, this old fool has got this University by the balls so we can't make him leave, but we are doing everything we can to make him realize it is time to leave?
If you have success, who's success is it? If you have failure, who's failure is it?
Big Tide said:
posted on February 1, 2008 7:18 AM — 12.208.88.211 — link — abuse?
TE, you can't see the forest for the trees. LSU is the first team in the HISTORY of college football to get a shot at the title with a TWO LOSS season and your aren't willing to admit that you guys were lucky? I'm sure you have the entire season on tape and proud for you and I know from your post that you can recite every play, but get your head out of the clouds. If Les Miles did not have more luck this past season than any coach in history would you please point out someone who did? Poor Tommy T. goes undefeated and can't even get a shot at the title?
I can acknowledge your championship season while still clearly seeing that there wasn't anything special about what Les did. The PLAYERS are the ones that deserve the CREDIT. In my opinion they won those games in spite of poor coaching. Don't worry, after a couple of season it will all become very clear to you.
By the way, great press conference yesterday with Nick. I'm sold. The guy knows how to find coaches, he's proven that with Jimbo and Muschamp and hopefully he's doing it again with McElwain or whatever his name is.
TE
posted on February 1, 2008 10:21 AM — 204.68.245.11 — link — abuse? said:
Actually, BigTide, Minnesota won back in 1960, if I'm not mistaken, and they had two losses, so, in the words of Okie State's coach, "So get your facts straight!"
I can feel your rancor, BigTide...It makes you strong...Gives you focus...You'll need it this year...
In all seriousness, man, we had a wild season...No one's doubting that...and "crazy" is not a word I'd use to describe Les Miles...He put us in position to win EVERY SINGLE GAME ON OUR SCHEDULE, IN REGULATION.
Was it the players who got the team focused for the SEC Title, playing for it with a backup? Was it the offense that called its own plays and designed the gameplan that dismantled the #1 defense in America, and hung 38 on it, with ALL the marbles on the line?
The truth of the matter is that the contenders who were in front of LSU after LSU stumbled, stumbled themselves, and you can't honestly say that you feel ANY other team in America wouldn't have gotten beaten by LSU when it was on (which it was in the NC game)...
Face it...We won, and we won while still tripping up...NOw, you can look at that a million different ways...The rest of the field in college football was weak and parity ruled the day this season.
Or, you could say that LSU was that strong...
I know that you don't like or coach...and it's pretty obvious I don't care for yours...But, there's no arguing with results, on either side...I know the guy produces...My point is that he's not going to produce chemistry...That's all.
TampaGator said:
posted on February 1, 2008 11:33 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
WEA/#28:
Thank you for the pointer(s). I think I've got it now: basically what I hear you saying is--have patience, right?
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
GO GATORS!!PS--I don't think I've hit 5 yet; musta' been some other impatient hack!
TampaGator said:
posted on February 1, 2008 11:33 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
WEA/#28:
Thank you for the pointer(s). I think I've got it now: basically what I hear you saying is--have patience, right?
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
I'll try not to machine gun any more posts...
GO GATORS!!PS--I don't think I've hit 5 yet; musta' been some other impatient hack!
Big Tide said:
posted on February 1, 2008 11:36 AM — 69.34.227.69 — link — abuse?
I'm confused. The question was "If Les Miles didn't have more luck this past season than any coach in history would you please point out someone who did?" For your answer you had to go back 48 years and dig up team and coach nobody remembers from a program that isn't even on the college football radar. I think you made my point....
Les is probably a good guy. He wears a turtleneck in the summer but I live in Destin, Florida where there are lots of stange northern people who dress, let's just say, different. I'm sure you guys will win 8 games this year while we break in what looks like a Top 3 recruiting class. You and I both know you guys are are losing a lot of talent and you know deep down in your blue and gold heart that Saban is about to bring the PAIN. You know he doesn't sleep at night thinking about football season. You know he wants it so bad...
After all the dust settles that's why Les and Nick both want to coach in SEC, because guys like you and me are talking about a sport that is 6 1/2 months away. We love it. They love it. And believe it or not I was pulling for you guys against Arkansas, Tennessee and Ohio State and you did great! Hat's off. But now we are in a new season and I can't wait for Tuesday when Julio puts his name on the dotted line and we begin a NEW ERA. Getting rid of the Shula trash and the Dubose, Coach Fran etc. all misery and get back to playing football like a REAL FOOTBALL SCHOOL!!!! ROLL DAMN TIDE......
posted on February 1, 2008 12:09 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Big Tide: LSU was extremely lucky, yes. But there was something else in play that I'll mention. When LSU lost to Arkansas, there wasn't a player or coach on that team that didn't think that it over for them. Even after the #1 and #2 teams lost later, they still didn't really think they had a shot.
The phenomenom that I believe helped LSU, and even helped Florida slide in last year, was the extreme guilt eveident in the media and pollsters of leaving out an undefeated SEC squad in 2004. And you can probably expect this trend to continue since SEC teams have won the MNC the last two years. Slowly but surely, people are starting to believe that the SEC champion of any given year is deserving to play in the title game.
Do I think that's fair? No, I don't, but I truly believe that is the emerging trend. I'm guy number 14,000 on here who wants a playoff, so the title can be won on the field.
So as much as Auburn got shafted three years ago, at least it looks like some dividends are finally being paid to her sister schools...
posted on February 1, 2008 12:28 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Minnesota was a recognized national champion in 1960, along with Mississippi, and they did have two losses. One of those was the Rose Bowl against Washington, but those were the days when the final poll was taken before the bowl game. Had it been done after, then Minnesota definitely would not have been selected.
I think the point Big Tide meant to make was that it was the first time that a team with two losses was playing in a de facto championship game.
Also, who can forget the 1941 Alabama team, who also had two losses and finished #20 in the final AP poll. However, one NC selector out of forty chose them as NC, so Alabama waits a few years until no one is watching and then puts it on the resume. One of their 12 claimed NCs...
Sorry, Big Tide...
Big Tide said:
posted on February 1, 2008 4:24 PM — 12.208.88.211 — link — abuse?
WEA, I never think a man should apologize for the truth. This all started when TE had to put his dirty laundry out on the line making a cheap shot about our program and our coach and then he somehow is trying to compare what Les Miles has done with what Saban did. That program hadn't smelled a title game since '58 and Saban puts them in the driver's seat and then Miles gets what they call in gambling a "miracle shot" season and suddenly TE has these guys on the same level. So I had to bring the boy back to reality. 1960 Minnesota. What the hell kind of comparison is that!!!
Regarding your point, that is why I mentioned Tommy T. in my previous post. Miles and LSU were the beneficiaries of 1) Auburn's screw job 2) a prevailing media idea that the Big 10 is actually a tough football conference 3) Divine intervention (see Auburn game) While TE and his Gold and Blue brothers are still swigging Abita and watching game tape the Tide is getting ready to sign one of the best football classes we have in decades. Saban's NC team at LSU lost one game (Florida) and the only other team that gave them a scare was Ole Miss. If memory serves that team beat Alabama and Aurburn by a combined 50+ points to 14 or something just dominating. Miles has a team with guys throwing helmets, jumping off sides, he's got a kid that could run over a bulldozer and instead of eating up the clock he's throwing the ball all over the field. Anybody that knows football knows they just had a destiny season, plain and simple. A two loss team playing for the NC? It was UNHEARD OF before this past season.
Finally, I disagree about the SEC. Until someone proves otherwise the SEC Champ should have an AUTOMATIC BERTH in the championship game. We just play a different kind of football. Besides Urban Myer not getting his kids ready (a trend I predict will continue, along with the downfall of Turtleneck)the SEC kicked butt. We (the SEC) have the best talent, the best coaches, we play the most intense schedule and by the time you survive all of that your team is ready for anything.
Zac said:
posted on February 1, 2008 5:06 PM — 209.36.193.14 — link — abuse?
The arguments discussed between Big Tide, WarEagle Atlanta, TE, TampaGator, and anyone else who has chimed in, or feels they want to, only enforces the argument, there is a need for some form of play-off system. Of all the teams in the Top-10, when the bowls were over, I think KS turned out to be the only team with 1 loss. Everybody else had at least 2, including LSU. Most of the teams with 2 losses had at least 1 loss to a team unranked at the time of the upset. Some even lost to teams with loosing records, or teams which eventually wound up with loosing records.
If one considers the list of teams with legitimate claim for a shot at the National Championship, there are few you could argue against. In alphabetical order you may consider ASU, GA, KS, LSU, MO, OK, OSU, TX, USC, VA Tech, WVU. Following the bowl season, given the match-ups and how things turned out, almost half of them have a reasonable argument that perhaps they earned the NC. As the system works out, LSU & OSU were selected for the game. LSU won it. Anyone can argue they didn’t deserve to be there. No one can argue they didn’t earn it once there.
Imagine how I feel. Given how well WVU played OK, does anyone think WVU couldn’t have done any better against OSU, had they not tripped up against Pitt? The results might have been the same had GA, MO, OK, or USC played OSU. The fact is we won’t ever know. It’s moot. LSU’s NC is in the books. Sometimes a true champion is not measured by whether or not they sustained a loss; rather, they’re measured by how they come back following a loss.
As far as the Miles vs. Saban argument goes, I don't think you can really compare the 2, save they both basically got the same results at the same place, just at different times. Besides, if you're at all a decent coach, it's easy to win ball games when you've got the talent on hand. It's the coaches who get the most out of their players, do the most with what they have (when they haven't got the talent prevalent at AL or LSU) who are truly great.
Big Tide said:
posted on February 1, 2008 5:35 PM — 69.34.227.69 — link — abuse?
I nominate Zac #38 as the best post yet in 2008 and while it is so OBVIOUS that I have an SEC bias, it doesn't take a PH D in college football to see that the Big 10 is screwing EVERYBODY! I was in HarborDocks the other day (semi-famous watering hole/restaruant in my neck of the woods) and this guy has on a Michigan hat and jacket. He looks like a normal guy so I strike up the normal conversation about Rich Rod and how I hope he turns the program around and this guy, with ALL SERIOUSNESS, starts telling me how overated the SEC is and that Carr had this bad break and that bad break and Ohio State had to play what amounted to an LSU home game..........it goes on and on. That was my ENTIRE point and I made it WAY BACK AT THE BEGINNING of the season (ask Kevin) there is so much parity right now in college football that the NC has turned into a beauty pagent. Hell yes I think LSU and Miles had a great season but to win a NC with 2 loses and several close calls and for your team to have a total LACK of discipline well into the last part of your season.......it just not what WE ALL AS COLLEGE FOOTBALL FANS HAVE COME TO EXPECT OUT OF OUR CHAMPION. It was not the same season that Saban put together!!! But.....we've got an ex President who got a hummer in the White House out stumping for his wife - so what the %*$@ is going on?????
posted on February 1, 2008 5:40 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Agreed, Big Tide. You can't compare the NC scene from 1960 to that of today--way different dynamic!
Seriously, though. Yes, I believe the SEC is the strongest conference, but I'm not quite ready to call for them to have a permanent slot in the NC game. Any given year, the SEC may have two teams capable of contending for a NC, but they're going to cross paths eventually, eliminating one of them.
Not so in the Big 10(11). That's one of the problems I have with the Big 10(11). It seems to me that if there's a chance that your two strongest teams in a given year are allowed to avoid each other due to scheduling, it gives that conference an decided advantage when it comes to placing teams in BCS bowls. That's why I'm for all 6 major conferences being required to play championship games.
posted on February 1, 2008 5:52 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse? said:
Zac: Last season is in the books, but what an aberration it was. How else to do get only one one-loss team in the top ten? My four-loss Auburn team wouldn't have been ranked in a normal year, instead of finishing #14-15.
Big Tide: Do they still have Cash's Bar down in your neck of the woods? I seem to recall getting one of their bumper stickers being slapped on my car.
Best Bumper Sticker of the election season: VOTE FOR MONICA LEWINSKY'S BOYFRIEND'S WIFE
Autigerman said:
posted on February 1, 2008 6:06 PM — 68.109.98.15 — link — abuse?
TE
Ill give you all you ask for about luck in the LSU wins but it was pure dumb luck that got LSU to the game.
After getting crushed on the ground by Arkansas
the last game of the season they fell off the radar. It was only by pure luck and the stars lined up,TE said his prayers and God smiled on LSU that everyone else in front of them lost.Thats where the true luck came in.
Zac said:
posted on February 1, 2008 8:10 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Big Tide, all I can say is, if mine be the best post thus far, thank God there's lots of 2008 left.
WarEagleA, like LSU having earned the NC, Auburn earned their place in the poles. Consider the way they came back agains a 1-3 start. Not bad in my book.
TE, those were some mighty strong prayers. While you're at it, howza bout praying I win the Loto.
We've all said coaches, teams, even conferences will have bad years. I don't think there's such a thing for all of college football, just wacky years like the one we all witnessed. Imagine what next year will be like. Can't wait!!!
Tomcat said:
posted on February 2, 2008 3:14 AM — 66.142.89.118 — link — abuse?
Big Tide Agreed looks like OL Mr Sweatervest & Mr Rod will have an easier time of making it to the big one, and dont forget SoCal Pete always ranked #1 who's you Daddy- Stanford?
#42 good post Those Hogs come into Austin next year, dont think that new coach is gonna help those little piggies nun.
Hookem-Horns setting the standard for excellence
Go Mustangs Welcome Coach June Jones
Sicem Bears Welcome coach Art Briles
Go UH Cougars Welcome coach Kevin Sumlin
Gigem-Aggies Welcome coach Mike ShermanBig Tide said:
posted on February 2, 2008 8:28 AM — 12.208.88.211 — link — abuse?
Like I said before, I'm a huge SEC fan, but TE had to go underground after the facts became so clear. To hear LSU fan talk about last year they were 13-0 and beat everybody by 20+ points. It just didn't happen that way, and while they are all breaking down the game film and and doing a circle jerk the rest of country KNOWS there WERE AT LEAST 3 TEAMS THAT COULD HAVE BEATEN OHIO STATE. 1) USC 2) Georgia 3) Virginia Tech. Maybe more, but these three schools could have taken home the crystal if they could have gotten to the big game. West VA, you've got a psuedo-argument but you just didn't bring the PAIN like the 3 teams I mentionedn.
Tomcat said:
posted on February 4, 2008 4:25 AM — 66.142.89.118 — link — abuse?
Hey Big Tide its cool man, sounds like yall got another good recruiting class according to WareagATL. yalls future looks bright.I gave ya a little heat on the Spurrier thread
Now I got you and Hotty Toddy t-d off its all in good fun
Adios Tomcat
P.S. I gots to go fishin bad
War Eagle Atlanta 
said:
posted on January 30, 2008 12:35 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?You gotta love the troll. He could tie a landing on Mars back to the Auburn and Alabama football programs with just a few degrees of seperation. And what would one of his columns be without a dig on Auburn? He insinuates at the end that Tuberville's adolescent sons might be potential successors on the Plains one day. What?
I take it as a compliment that the troll views the little East Alabama Cow College as such an obstacle in the path of Alabama football glory.