January 15, 2007
Why isn't Charlie Weis in hot water?
Former Notre Dame head coach Bob Davie is giving some hot sports opinions on the performance of the Irish under current coach Charlie Weis. Weis, who inherited some pretty good talent when he took over Notre Dame, has a better record during the same time span than both Davie and former Irish coach Ty Willingham, but Davie questions the direciton of program:
"It's hard to say Notre Dame improved this year with probably the No. 1 player in the NFL draft, (quarterback) Brady Quinn, with (receiver) Jeff Samardzija, with potentially five first-round NFL draft picks,'' Davie said. "I don't think they're as good a team as they were last year. On defense they continued to go backwards."Notre Dame has had two successful seasons, two BCS bowl games in a row, but I think it's hard to say that the program is really going in a positive direction right now.''
Let's look past what many UND supporters are going to say is Davie's sour grapes.
To pararphrase Mercury News writer John Wilner, Ty Willingham got fired not for his record (21-15), but because his team didn't perform in big games. Willingham's Irish lost five games by 31 points or more during his tenure, and it cost him his job.
Fast forward to the Charlie Weis era at Notre Dame and what's changed? The Irish have gotten drilled in big games since Weis arrived at South Bend.
In the past 366 days, Notre Dame has been beaten like a dog on national television no less than four times:
Ohio State 34, Notre Dame 20 - Fiesta Bowl (1-2-2006)
Michigan 47, Notre Dame 21- at home (9-23-2006)
USC 44, Notre Dame 24 - at USC (11-25-2006)
LSU 41, Notre Dame 14 - Sugar Bowl (1-3-2007)
And the worst part of those four awful losses is that Notre Dame never was really competitive in any of those games.
"When you lose to Michigan, you lose to USC and you lose to LSU in a bowl game by a significant score, there will be ramifications from that for Charlie Weis,'' Davie told ESPN radio, according to the Chicago Tribune."I think the shine is off, to be quite honest. I know going around the country talking to football coaches, particularly head coaches, I think a little bit of the mystique is definitely off.''
In just two years, Charlie Wies's teams have stormed the Irish record books - his Notre Dame teams are #3 and #4 all time in most points allowed by Irish teams.
This year's edition of the Irish needed 19 points in the fourth quarter to overcome a 4-8 Michigan State team. (Seriosuly? Yeah, seriously.) But still, it's Coach Weis, after all - hakuna matata and all that.
Weis (19-6 in two seasons) is 15-1 against unranked teams and just 4-5 against ranked teams. Under Coach Weis, the Notre Dame Fighting Irish have a losing record against ranked teams. Just let that soak in for a moment. And still, the fans and administration are treating Weis like the second coming of Knute Rockne.
So where's the lynch mob ready to hang Charlie Weis? There isn't one. But - then again - Weis only has four hide tannings in two years versus Willingham's five in three years. Logic - or what passes for it around here - would dictate that Weis should be getting close to the produce or perish point at Notre Dame, but he's not, at least not publicly. Why not?
Now before anyone goes there - this isn't about race. Yes, Ty is black and Charlie is white. So what? Notre Dame doesn't care. I promise you they don't. It is *not* about race, got that?
Wilner points out that Weis *is* a Notre Dame guy. He's an alum. Willingham wasn't and was always an outsider at UND. But is Weis class ring enough to give him a hall pass on accountability? It shouldn't be, but it certainly looks that way.
I'm wondering if - in the secret meetings that no one talks about - if the Irish have put Weis on notice. Could that be behind the NFL rumors?
Because I'll say this - if the next 366 days are anything like the past 366 days, the Irish will need to go shopping for a new coach.
Comments:
PreProSports.com said:
posted on January 15, 2007 11:52 AM — 66.73.199.146 — link — abuse?
Notre Dame, Bama, Florida, Oklahoma...these schools want more than just wins out of a coach:
1) Joke around with the boosters (program owners)
2) Great quips for reporters
3) An interesting coach's show
4) Recruiting classes that get ranked for early bragging rights
5) Beating rivalsWillingham has zero personality, he didn't beat rivals, and his recruiting classes never shined. So when he didn't make the program dominant, he was axed.
I'm not going to say that the Notre Dame faithful don't feel more homey with Weis due to his heritage, but Willingham is a better fit personality-wise for a school not so rabid about the game and the intangibles with it.
Tom Blogical said:
posted on January 15, 2007 12:22 PM — 24.95.77.153 — link — abuse?
Why isn't Charlie Weis in hot water?"
I'd say water displacement would be a huge factor. Who'd want to get burnt?
I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself. Just a joke, I swear!
I think he needs to get a new defensive coordinator. From what I understand, he's been trying to recruit a lot of speed and that should help out a lot.
sean o'honan said:
posted on January 15, 2007 1:12 PM — 24.254.159.112 — link — abuse?
Weis isn't in hot water because of the recuits he continues to bring in. If Weis's recuits don't perform over the next two years then i'd say he should be in hot water. Let's be honest Ty left him some playmakers but overall this senior class was not eyepopping in terms of overall talent. No one seems to remember before Weis got there nobody was even talking about Quinn and Samardzija so let's give him some credit to what he's been able to do in terms of the offense, but I must admit if the defense does not get drastically better Notre Dame will never be elite!
joe said:
posted on January 15, 2007 1:17 PM — 69.106.252.159 — link — abuse?
It costs 21 MIL to buy out his contract.
Source;
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/01/14/playoffs/4.htmlMR said:
posted on January 15, 2007 1:29 PM — 24.58.85.165 — link — abuse?
Why Weis? Because people who care remember how far the program had fallen.
2006 10-3
2005 9-32004 6-6
He's taken a 6-6 team and, with shear willpower, turned them into a good team. These same guys couldn't even beat the teams they were supposed to beat three years ago.
We know he's recruiting waaaay better than Ty. If he's still getting blown out in bowl games after "his" guys are playing, then let's talk.
Trickster said:
posted on January 15, 2007 1:51 PM — 68.17.160.88 — link — abuse?
It's hard to go from cult worship to running a guy out of town on a rail overnight. I'm sure the folks in South Bend are a bit confused about Weiss-related matters right now. Perhaps they will get a better grip after they go through the stages of grief.
I think Diggs is right that he'll be kept around, at least for a few more years, if he keeps getting BCS game invites. But I also think the Weiss hype machine volume for next year is going to be turned down from 11 to about 5, and that won't help recruiting or program morale. And then we will be in a situation where Charlie will have to either show that he has some true mettle (as opposed to the hyped variety) by turning the program back around, or he will be joining the ex-Notre Dame coach crowd.
posted on January 15, 2007 2:02 PM — link — abuse?Kevin Donahue said:
#1 - Diggs - The money helps. It definitely does, but I'm not sure your typical Notre Dame fan factors in the BCS, because the typical Notre Dame fan sees the BCS as a given.
#2 - PreProSports.com - I think you're on to something there.
To those of you who say that Weis doesn't have "his recruits"... so what? Ty played with Davie's recruits - some of whom were the dreggs of the recruiting classes - and you fired him after three seasons of playing with another coach's guys - why the double standard now?
Keenan said:
posted on January 15, 2007 2:22 PM — 129.74.100.203 — link — abuse?
As a student during the last two years of Willingham's career and the first two of Weis' career, I have a much better perspective on why Weis isn't in too much hot water.
First of all, Weis doesn't lose to teams that he should beat. You can argue the Michigan State game last year or the Michigan game this year, but Notre Dame loses to teams that are better than it. Charlie's losses come in games that they don't expect to win anyways, so its not such a big deal. When a Notre Dame team loses to Syracuse, BYU, Purdue (by a lot), Backup College x3, Pitt, Oregon State, and almost Navy... Then the coach has some hot water to deal with.
Secondly, Charlie Weis is an offensive guru. The amount that he has improved the production of the Notre Dame offense since his arrival is tremendous. It wasn't expected that the defense would improve very much. Since the defense really hasn't improved, you need to look at the person with the most direct control of the defense: Rick Minter. The soon to be firing of Minter shows that problem areas are being addressed, and Charlie isn't one of them.
Third, Charlie is an alum. He genuinely wants to help Notre Dame football. He doesn't have any higher priority, unlike Willingham's golf game.
Fourth, Charlie Recruits. His class last year was in the top 5 in the country. His class this year will be in the top 10 in the country. He gets big name players. Willingham took a laid back approach to Notre Dame recruiting: let them come to us. Ha.
Fifth and most importantly, think of this: Can Charlie Weis lead the Irish to a National Championship, or even to a top 5 finish, sometime in the next 3 years? The overall feeling is "Yes, he can". Could you have said that of Willingham after his third season? No.
Finally, those who can't play the game of football coach. And those who can't coach become "football analysts". Thank you Bob Davie. Its safe to say someone still holds a grudge...
GB said:
posted on January 15, 2007 2:26 PM — 129.74.186.233 — link — abuse?
Kevin,
Because from the 44-13 loss to Southern Cal in 2002 until the 20-17 loss to a 5-6 Brigham Young team, Notre Dame lost 10 games over a 15 game stretch. That was the worst 15 game stretch since 1960. And Weis is about to bring in his second straight top ten recruiting class. Willingham never worked hard enough to be successful in recruiting.
PopsMich said:
posted on January 15, 2007 2:30 PM — 71.77.24.80 — link — abuse?
Listen to Bob Davies, plllleeeeasssse.
If ND wants to set their program back even further, then listen to the man. If he is 1/2 as dull and dumb as he appeared in the booth, you'll bury this beast for good.
This shouldn't even be a serious discussion, given the source of the quotes.
Brian said:
posted on January 15, 2007 3:07 PM — 69.143.246.51 — link — abuse?
I disagree with your article. Ty Willingham didn't work hard to recruit great players. After his second year at Notre Dame, his recruiting class was starting to get worse from Top 10 to somewhere in Top 50. This really concerned Notre Dame and even worse is that Ty Willingham didn't try to change his coaching staff after they lost many blowouts. Ty's offense wasn't impressive. This is where Charlie Weis came in and his offense was very impressive. I think it was a great hire, because all Notre Dame had to do is find a coach who can score points and work on bad defense that will take some time then Notre Dame will be back to complete for a national Championship. You can't say Weis is not a good head coach. I think Notre Dame is heading into a right direction and it will take time before we see them playing against elite teams.
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 15, 2007 3:11 PM — 132.228.195.207 — link — abuse?
First the cheeseburger has the fools wearing the golden dome on their heads drinking the kool aid
lets beat win the CIC trophy (army navy af), lets then go beat the dredges of a couple of BCS conferences (Stanford, MSU), lets win our 9-10 a year and due to a huge national following and probably as many haters, it makes for a heckuva bowl audience. I for one and a hater, and I watched the entire sugar bowl just to see them manhandled so from that perspective the SB made the right call with ND even if they didn't deserve it.
2007 will be a toughone for the cheese burger. he will have no offense and his defense still stinks. Ron powlus as QB coach, oh my, he hasn't even been in coaching the last couple years, he was doing some other BS ND job within FB operations
I've seen people say that ND is anywhere from 6-6 to 9-3 next year; my guess is 7-5 during the regular season and that they finally win a bowl game b/c it will be against the MAC runner up or something in the 1st annual Mud Hen bowl or something like it.
Next year; it will all be about 2008; thats when I think that if the cheeseburger doesn't put up 11 wins plus a BCS win; he starts to feel the heat from the frying pan cooking his fat cheeseburger arse
posted on January 15, 2007 4:23 PM — link — abuse?
@TrojanHorse - I agree with you. The prospects for Notre Dame are not looking up. They are not going to improve upon 2006. They are not going to win 10 games.
And yet... we have Keenan & GB and others saying that Notre Dame is on the upswing. With that kind of punch-drunk kool-aid view, I suspect we'll be having this same discussion after an 8-5 Notre Dame team runs through a Jan 1 bowl.
TampaGator said:
posted on January 15, 2007 5:09 PM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
Bod Davies....didn't he used to sing for the Kinks?
This crap really shouldn't get any play....unless you're purposely trying to undermine Notre Dame's recruiting.
Weiss just hired a new DC; he's building ND back with big boys on OL; he's landing a top QB recruit; he's getting a pile of seniors to return; players keeping out of trouble and graduating...seems to be headed in right direction to me.
If ND doesn't give CW at least through '08, they're making a huge mistake.
My $.02.
JPB said:
posted on January 15, 2007 5:54 PM — 199.171.86.180 — link — abuse?
It's obvious from this post and Kevin Donahue's responses (especially) that the part of TrojanHorse's statement that he most agrees with is: "and I for one and (sic) a hater." Obvious bias against ND. Keenan and GB are trying to educate you. Let it sink in. Go lookup the recruiting history if you need to validate it. Give a modest effort at objectivity. Yes, we would've liked the defense with a converted running back, converted quarterback, and converted receivers to do better, but that would be wishful thinking. And yes, next year with Ty's pathetic recruiting classes will be a challenge. But anyone with a little insight will know whether Charlie is making progress. The following two years will be Charlie's to own. And there is a big difference between going 19-6 with five of those losses to teams ranked in the top 10 (and one in OT), and going 11-12. If you can't see that, you are just trying not to.
posted on January 15, 2007 6:13 PM — link — abuse?
@JPB - I think over the years I've proven myself to be a very big fan of Notre Dame doing well. A successful Notre Dame team is good for college football. Rather than assigning a bias to me, you might want to read some of the things I've written over the last five years, sir.
@TampaGator - I presume your joking about the recruiting crack. Davie is raising a fair question and we blogged it. Why does it seem like ND is going backwards on the field. It's a fair question. The Miami fans asked the same of Coker and came to the conclusion that -- regardless of the recruiting or the records -- the team was not getting stronger year in and year out. Is it a premature concern? Maybe, but it's totally legit to measure where this team is and where it is going.
Denis said:
posted on January 15, 2007 6:39 PM — 69.228.211.66 — link — abuse?
About the "race" reason -- why is that brought up about ND after Ty had two very losing seasons, recruited poorly, both in numbers and in talent,and talked to Washington before ND let him go? And why is no one questioning the lack of concern about poor old Ty when Mora says that he has his resume polished for the Washington job? Ty refused to fire an offensive coordinator who was a joke and played 18 holes of golf everyday. Charlie has weaknesses, but there is movement!
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 15, 2007 6:46 PM — 132.228.195.207 — link — abuse?
to #18 JPB; I am a hater of ND and never have tried to hide it; but I know good football teams when I see them and I know bad teams when I see them. I won't go so far to say that ND Is a Bad team but I do think that they are team that is not getting better. Defensively, ND can't do anything. Any team with a pulse can go right through that ND defense. Even teams like UNC went through your defense. The difference is that you can outscore the bad teams on your schedule and get lambasted by the good teams. I really don't see how you think this will change in 2007. Who are you going to beat?
2008 from what I read is your year. As this will allow the cheeseburger to have four classess of his own on the team. Well the first two classes haven't exactly blown me away, so that leaves a true frosh class and a RS/Frosh or soph class to carry the load in 08. I'm not so sure that you guys win double digits in 08 either. anyone worth their weight will leave early too like Darius this year.
Two more years of kool aid and then the cheeseburger will have to increase the magical ingrediant he is spiking the koolaid with.. b/c by then someone will realize that he is not the real deal... so far he's gotten by on an easy schedule and a national following that television loves... that only last so long
It's obvious from this post and Kevin Donahue's responses (especially) that the part of TrojanHorse's statement that he most agrees with is: "and I for one and (sic) a hater." Obvious bias against ND. Keenan and GB are trying to educate you. Let it sink in. Go lookup the recruiting history if you need to validate it. Give a modest effort at objectivity. Yes, we would've liked the defense with a converted running back, converted quarterback, and converted receivers to do better, but that would be wishful thinking. And yes, next year with Ty's pathetic recruiting classes will be a challenge. But anyone with a little insight will know whether Charlie is making progress. The following two years will be Charlie's to own. And there is a big difference between going 19-6 with five of those losses to teams ranked in the top 10 (and one in OT), and going 11-12. If you can't see that, you are just trying not to.
Eldergriffon said:
posted on January 15, 2007 7:45 PM — 24.4.134.76 — link — abuse?
The article above is based on three fallacies:
- Weis is not on the hotseat
- Willingham was let go primarily because he lost big games
- The Irish's performance is exactly what ND fans expected given our talent level
Not one of these is true. Weis will be watched over the next season for a continuation of a pattern of lackluster performance on defense and the team not being at least competitive in big games. Willingham did something much worse than not win big games: he lost ones that should have been won. That convinced people that the team wasn't making progress. Finally, it is undeniable that Weis has brought dramatic improvement to the offensive side of the ball and he is still admired for his focus, emphasis on accountability, and deliberate style. However, talent by itself doesn't explain the regression in play on defense. If something doesn't change in the course of next season, his job will be in question. That's why there are reports of him switching defensive coordinators now. He knows he doesn't have any time to waste.
The fans are not on kool-aid or any species of hallucinogen. I repeat what I've said before: if you think the team hasn't improved since Weis's arrival, then you haven't been watching the games. (Yes, even the games against USC, Michigan, and LSU.) However, he has yet to prove he can take the next step. Bob Davies's comments are perfectly fair and justified, and will sound prophetic if better play isn't evident next season on defense. There is no double standard. Weis will be held accountable, as, I'm sure, he himself would desire to be.
Lou said:
posted on January 15, 2007 8:18 PM — 24.187.42.254 — link — abuse?
Why isn't Charlie in hot water, but Willingham was? Well, for one, Charlie was 10-3 in his second year. Willingham was 5-6. You don't think that had anything to do w/ it? And lets say Weis goes a respectable 8-4 next season. That'd leave him w/ a career record at ND of 27-10 (.730 winning %) over 3 years, compared to Willingham's 21-15 (.583 winning %). I'd say that's fairly significant.
Plus, I see you've used a nice double-standard to explain the number of blowouts ND has been on the wrong side of during both coach's tenure. For Weis, you're counting a 14-point Fiesta Bowl loss as one of his 4 "blow-outs," and simultaneously saying Willingham was only involved in 5 such games during his 3 years. But by my count Notre Dame was in fact involved in SEVEN losses of 13 points or more during Ty's tenure, and that's not including the Insight Bowl.
You've also neglected to mention that under Ty's tenure, Notre Dame lost to Syracuse (by 22 points), Purdue twice (once @ South Bend for the first time in decades-AND it was a blowout), BYU, and BC 3 times. Say what you want about Charlie when ND's played against the top 5 teams, but unlike Ty he hasn't been losing to mid-to-lower tier teams in his tenure, outside of MSU last year. Ty had 7 or 8 such losses in his tenure, a number of which were in blowout fashion. His teams were scizophrenic and very up & down, a sure sign of poor coaching. In contrast, Charlie's team's are fairly consistent. They beat the teams they should beat, they lose to the teams they shouldn't. And I don't want to hear about 19-points in the 4th quarter to MSU either. A win is a win is a win. When any other team does that, its a "gutsy performance," when Notre Dame does it, they're overrated.
And we haven't even begun to talk about the differences recruiting. Willingham had 1 pretty good class, and then 2 of the worst classes in Notre Dame history. Charlie looks like he's on the verge of his second top-10 recruiting class.
Has Charlie done everything right since he got to South Bend? No of course not. He picked the wrong defensive coordinator for one. His gameplanning and playcalling at times has shown way to little faith in his defense, even for Notre Dame. But I think to say that over 2 years, the only difference between his tenure and Ty's is Charlie's an alumnis is more than a little bit short-sighted.
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 15, 2007 8:29 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
The prospects for Notre Dame are looking up. Weis has brought in two straight strong recruiting classes. He has revamped the offense to where it is dynamic. They can score. They need to get team speed on defense. I know that they are working on that. Notre Dame is winning all the games that they are supposed to. They almost shocked USC in 2005 - along way from the three previous 31 point beatdowns. Personally, I do see an overall improvement from Notre Dame. They will suck next year, that is for sure, but Jimmy Claussen should bloom in 2008 and the Irish will begin to make more strides. By 2009 or 2010 - they may challenge for a National Championship. Great recruiting classes produce National Championship caliber teams when those players become seniors. If you look back at the history of recruiting - the Top Teams always have a good class four years prior to the great team. Notre Dame is still two years away - and it's not Charlie Weis's fault. And, you all know that I hate Notre Dame. And there is a reason. Eventually, Notre Dame is gonna kick our azz again. This series has gone back and forth for a long time. I would hope that the Trojans could beat them 16 times in a row - but it isn't gonna happen. Notre Dame will be back. Anybody that doesn't understand that - does not understand college football at all.
Tommie T
Tommie T
BlueGold said:
posted on January 15, 2007 9:49 PM — 24.7.238.54 — link — abuse?
Thanks, Tommie T. I've always thought that the fans in the USC / ND rivalry are classy, as opposed to a couple of other ND rivalries where things get more rude. I was glad to see that Coach Carroll is staying with the Trojans; he brings a positive attitude and a love of the game, and it will be good to know that when ND beats USC they will have earned it.
Regarding this blog and Davie's comments, it is fair to ask if there's a double standard. I actually thought that the defense was about the same this season, and that it was the offense and special teams that regressed. In particular, our line play was unreliable at best. Unlike the previous coaching regime, though, it is clear that Coach Weis and his staff are targeting the problem and getting good O-line recruits. The lack of defensive recruits was troubling.
Lastly, I think that lots of the conjecture in discussions like this comes from the fact that ND's opponents have been sort of all-or-nothing. Last year's wins over Michigan and Tennessee, and this year's wins over Penn State and Georgia Tech are about the only games against teams *maybe* in the 10-25 tier. We know ND is not a top-5 team, just like they don't belong out of the top 25. I think it would have been interesting to see a bowl match-up with Oklahoma, Boise State, Wake Forest, or Louisville -- the LSU outcome was painfully predictable, although Darius Walker's performance made it worth my while. Good luck to him!
Keenan said:
posted on January 15, 2007 10:24 PM — 66.254.240.218 — link — abuse?
TrojanHorse, you seem to find fault in my statement about our predicted success in the next 3 years. I for one know that we won't win a national championship next year (I'm guessing 7-5). The year after that, we probably won't either (9-3). But with two top 10 classes as upperclassmen 3 years from now, and Weis having settled in as coach, we at ND firmly believe that a national championship is possible.
At ND, as long as you believe there is a possibility of a national championship with the current coach you have, there is absolutely no possibility of the coach being in hot water.
TampaGator said:
posted on January 16, 2007 10:11 AM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
Kevin Donahue:
Re. my "...recruiting crack"--I wasn't accusing YOU of trying to undermine ND's recruiting, although in re-reading it, I see how you would have inferred that. Frankly, I really didn't put a whole lot of thought into that post (e.g.--I mispelled "Bob").
I do however, seriously question DAVIES' motive in tripping this issue. You brushed the issue with "sour grapes" comment. Seems to me he has a vested interest in seeing Weiss fail, because if Weiss succeeds, then it will demonstrably show that he too could have (and therefore should have) succeeded.
As for blogging the comments--sure, just about anything is fair game for blogging.
I just think that Ray Davies of the Kinks probably has more relavant input on Notre Dame (by being less tainted with conflicting interests) than Bob Davies! :)
bob said:
posted on January 16, 2007 1:24 PM — 68.74.186.159 — link — abuse?
this is all very funny. Yes, lets not be realists here but pluck something from the ever dwindling pile of Ty vs Weis laundry.
I notice when the whole "at this time in their careers at ND they are " thing skewed in Weis' favor, the little stat conveniently disappeared from the talking drones fodder. Why? Easy, it didnt feed into the "ND is racist" mantra any longer.
Funny thing about playing pick and choose with stats - it never seems to factor in the little trend after Ty's 8-0 record.....the 13-15 post for the next 2 1/3 years, along with 30 something and 40 something ranked recruiting classes.
Lets revise history shall we? Lets act like nobody called for an 0-6 start in Weis' first year. The win @ #3 Michigan in Ann Arbor, taking ESPNs best team of the last 100 years, USC, to a needle threading 4th and 9 play.
Lets ignore the fact that Ty couldnt win with Ty's players and Brady Quinn and co were anonymous players until Weis.
Lets ignore 46 blue chip recruits in the last 2 years.
The racism undertone is a much better story. Certainly dont bring up the grumblings at UW by fanblogs there....how can the ND is racist word be spread if Washington doesnt comply?
This stuff is great, I tell you. I wonder if I can play with numbers enough to turn myself into a billionaire?
IrishJT said:
posted on January 18, 2007 9:19 AM — 71.207.226.16 — link — abuse?
First of all, I love that there is yet another string about Notre Dame...this non-elite, has-been, over-rated, over-hyped program. Keep it comin' boys. You continue to prove my point...college football ain't shite without Notre Dame.
As for Weis, he is not in hot water because he isn't 21-15. Charlie has lost 6 games in two seasons. It will take him at least 4 more seasons to lose 15 games (that's conceding 4 losses next season). Ty recruited Quinn (actually, he recruited Ndukwe and their coach begged Ty to look at Quinn who "always wanted to go to Notre Dame). Ty then coached them both, and McKnight, Samaridja, etc., to an 11-13 record in Ty's final two years. Weis took the same kids, turned all three into NFL players and went 19-4 in the regular season plus to BCS Bowl appearances.
Where's the comparison with Ty? Oh by the way, that defense that everyone has been laughing at...that was Ty's as well. Minter, who was a good coach for the Irish, lost his job this week because you can't do much with shite...and that is what Ty recruited. COACHING won 19 games...not talent. The recruits Weis got last year and this year will propel the Irish into the national title game in 2008.
Notre Dame is not an elite program...they are THE elite program. Without the Irish, Michigan and USC are just conference teams.
IrishJT said:
posted on January 18, 2007 2:15 PM — 65.83.54.4 — link — abuse?
by the way, Davies and Willingham are right up there with Gerry Faust as three of the WORST Notre Dame Coaches of All Time. They drove the program into the dirt. Ty Willingham can't win 6 games in the PAC 10. Davies can't get a job coaching DIII. Let's be realistic. Weis has 4 Super Bowl rings. Willingham has one season left in his career and Davies' is over. I think Charlie likes his odds.
Ty was fired because he was terrible at recruiting and terrible at coaching. Both are "kinda" important at the college level. The color of his skin was one of the main reasons he got a lot of the recruits that he did get...so it worked to his advantage and probably got him that third season. I wish Ty had been fired 5 minutes after he was hired...that's how bad he was (IS, actually).
So Cal Clippers said:
posted on January 18, 2007 9:40 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Ty Willingham was 2-4 vs USC and Michigan... Wies is 1-3 vs USC and Michigan. Neither one's done well vs their rivals.
The drop-off in Recruiting was evident in 2004 and 2005 (the transition season), Notre Dame had Top 10 recruiting classes in 2002 and 2003. Ty Willingham was pretty good recruiter even at Stanford... so if there were any biggot-ed attitudes that influenced anything, Id say it was moreso on the part of Parents of recruits; Notre Dame HIRED Willingham in the first place.
Either way, Willingham got tossed-out pretty quickly - a bit unfair, but thats how it goes.
Wies did better than expected in his first year, but underachieved in his second year... we'll see what he does with most of "Ty's recruits" gone, in 2007.
IRISH-THORN said:
posted on January 19, 2007 2:02 AM — 69.133.10.161 — link — abuse?
LET'S FACE IT, THE IRISH WERE NOT EXPECTED TO DO ANYTHING CHARLIE'S FIRST YEAR BUT HE SURPRISED SOME TEAMS AND THE MEDIA. THE SECOND YEAR THE HONEYMOON WAS OVER THE THE TEAMS WERE READY. STILL HE DID NOT LOSE TO TEAMS IN THE MID LEVEL. THERE WERE EIGHT TEAMS THE IRISH PLAYED GOING TO BOWL GAMES AND FOUR THAT DIDN'T. SO THE SCHEDULE WAS A FAIRLY GOOD SCHEDULE. NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE TOUGHER PICKING UP BOSTON COLLEGE AND DROPPING ARMY. THE ND HATERS OF COURSE WANT CHARLIE TO FAIL, BUT THE IRISH ARE COMING, JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE.
GatorMatt said:
posted on January 19, 2007 11:25 AM — 70.152.41.18 — link — abuse?
Charlie Weiss coached Notre Dame to a crappy season an an undeserved bowl game in his second season. Urban Meyer turned a crappy Florida team under the direction of Ron Zook (the Big 10 can have him. He fits in nicely there) into National Champions in 2 seasons. Just throwing that out there
TampaGator said:
posted on January 19, 2007 11:25 AM — 152.163.100.196 — link — abuse?
TommieT/25:
Excellent post; that's what college football is all about!
IrishJT/#34+35: The Irish are making great progress under Weis, and ND is great for college FB; but it is by no means, the end all and be all of college FB.
I assure you, the entire SEC (and by SEC I mean the entire SE quadrant of the continental US) wouldn't skip a beat if ND folded and faded away yesterday. I persoanlly like ND football, but it may as well be on pay per view for the play it gets down here.
TampaGator said:
posted on January 19, 2007 11:45 AM — 152.163.100.196 — link — abuse?
GatorMatt:
With all due respect, Zook loaded the Gators with serious talent--Chris Leak, DeShawn Wynn, Bubba Caldwell, Dallas Baker, Jarvis Moss, Regie Nelson... Zook was weak with X's and O's, and discipline, but he was a great recruiter (hell, he's even landing bluechips at freak'n Illinois!!!).
Frankly, UMeyer (love the guy) didn't win this year so much with X's and O's, as with Zook's talent and his (Meyer's) discipline (of the physical variety--not in terms of penalties--Gators outlasted teams; under Zook they folded in 4th Qtr).
Weis has won largely through X's and O's, and lost plainly due to lack of talent--particularly, defensive talent.
My $.02.
GatorMatt said:
posted on January 19, 2007 2:40 PM — 70.152.41.18 — link — abuse?
TampaGator,
This may be true, but Meyers recruiting class last year was somewhere in the top 3 in the nation. It looks like this years will be number 1. I'd have to say him and his coaching staff were pretty good with X's and O's. Just ask Ohio State
TampaGator said:
posted on January 19, 2007 3:42 PM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
GatorMatt:
I'm not taking anything away from Meyer as recruiter; just saying he's enjoying the fruits of Zooks recruiting last couple of years.
I hate to admit it, but Meyer's X's and O's worked against OSU because UF was far superior atheletically to OSU. In SEC play, QB never has that kind of time to throw, and conversely, OL are used to SEC speed.
Don't misunderstand; I'm a huge fan of Meyer's; I have every confidence that he will make it work, and he takes the time to analze teams. I'm just saying this year, it wasn't so much his x/o's. (although I give him the cojones of the year award for that 4th dn fake punt against ARK in our own territory! That was pure x/o's).
IrishJT said:
posted on January 19, 2007 4:54 PM — 71.207.226.16 — link — abuse?
TampaGator/GatorMatt,
Has it somehow escaped you two that Notre Dame football is on every single Saturday afternoon in the "southeast quadrant of the United States"?? I know because I live in Alabama. You suggest that Notre Dame games don't get any play "down here"...you sure? Of the ten highest rated televised regular season games ever...Notre Dame was involved in half. You can say the same for Bowl Games too.Florida had a great season. Urban Whiner is a decent coach that should have lost 3 or 4 games last season...lest we forget thy bidding (South Carolina, Tennessee, Vandy). Come on boys. You can rag on the Irish for comeback wins against UCLA and State, but you are not then allowed to forget about your wins over those less-than-stellar teams. Your victory over a very, very bad FSU team was unimpressive as well.
So lets be honest. Florida beat Ohio State, a good team. The SEC is a great conference with many great teams. College football ain't shit without Notre Dame. ...all are facts!
Gatorpilot said:
posted on January 19, 2007 7:23 PM — 71.42.27.135 — link — abuse?
TampaGator, I think I understand the gist of your point in post #41, but I don't think you can take credit away for the gameplanning that Meyer and staff used to win games, especially their last two against Arkansas and Ohio State. When you put up close to 400 yards of offense against the Bucks despite repeated short-field situations, and hold them to 82 yards, that is talent AND that is coaching of the Xs and Os variety. Meyer will continue to prove he has all the bases covered in his next few years in Gainesville. Just watch.
GatorMatt said:
posted on January 20, 2007 10:40 AM — 68.101.77.114 — link — abuse?
#46
Meyer isn't going anywhere
http://www.alligator.org/pt2/070116louis.phpclemson1981 said:
posted on January 20, 2007 9:19 PM — 74.242.87.164 — link — abuse?
irishJT:
yea but you do realize that the trophy says in floridas case and the ring goes to the coach, now if yall are so good, why didnt urban stay? i mean if you so good why would someone go be the HC of bowling green? your argument makes no since.GatorMatt said:
posted on January 21, 2007 2:09 PM — 68.101.77.114 — link — abuse?
Post 49:
Urban did win with Zook's players, as well as a few of his own (Tebow, Harvin, James). Urban has the coaching talent unlike Zook. And when a team wins a National Title, the recruiting takes care of itself. This years recuiting class is pegged to be #1 in the nation
paulwesterdawg said:
posted on January 21, 2007 10:46 PM — 68.158.144.192 — link — abuse?
4-5 vs. ranked teams...interesting. But not as interesting as the fact that Weis has beaten ONE team that finished the season ranked in the Top 25 over the past two years.
Penn State finished ranked this year. That's it.
So 1 quality win....yeah....pay raise time!
Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on January 21, 2007 11:12 PM — 68.48.90.248 — link — abuse?
irishjt,
You gotta be the only kid on here simply because you are constantly implying that other people should "let the adults talk". If you were grown (which I don't think your over 18 or 19) then you wouldn't be trying so hard to prove that your an adult now would you?
irishjt, clemson1981 is right, your arguments never make any sense period.
"Lets not forget that you are a no sense maker!!!"
Blankchannelbob said:
posted on January 22, 2007 5:32 AM — 69.139.143.225 — link — abuse?
Lets talk production and economics.
How many BCS games did Davie or Willingham go to?
Willingham first year they went to the Gator Bowl. That's their only New Year's day performance. Payoffs about a $1m
He was playing two weeks before the Jan 1 in the Insight Bowl when he was fired. Payoffs about $750kWeis...
2 seasons- 2 BCS bowl bids with Willingham players.
Guaranteed at least 14.5 million for each game to the school.
Remember Notre Dame does not share the money since they are an independent.2 years- over 30 million dollars to the school.
He certainly has justified what they are paying him. Great return on their investment.
IrishJT said:
posted on January 22, 2007 9:27 AM — 71.207.226.16 — link — abuse?
i just love that yet again we are talking about that over-rated, over-hyped team in south bend. seems to me that the hype is doing just fine...as is the program. 19 wins in 2 seasons ain't bad, but we can, and will, do better.
keep that chat rolling boys. maybe you'll stop wondering why the most popular, most watched and highest paid football program EVER is on the tip of your tongue. i love it.
diggsy, you and clemson1981 need to keep quiet. just because he's 15 and you have the mentality of a 15 year old does not mean you have to express any thoughts ever again on FANBLOGS. both of ya'lls grammar is horrific, your points are non-sensical if not incoherent and nobody gives a sh*t about west virginia...that's why there are no strings related to the Mounties EVER!!!
TampaGator said:
posted on January 22, 2007 9:29 AM — 64.12.116.199 — link — abuse?
IrishJT
/#53: By far the weakest, cheesiest, and most ridiculous post I've ever read. Clemson1981 owns your ass, loser (...now it all makes sense--you live in freak'n Alabama!).
/#48: ....Oh the pride, in knowing that coach Urban Meyer chose to pursue (and dare I say, achieve) his immortality through my beloved alma mater, and to forever link his name to the glorious orange and blue, over the faded black and white memories of Notre Dame du Lac...
...stings, don't it?
GO GATORS!!!
IrishJT said:
posted on January 22, 2007 2:38 PM — 65.83.54.4 — link — abuse?
TampaGator...you live in Florida, the trailer park capital of the United States. Please don't impugn good folks for where they live. That just shows your ignorance. You didn't go to Florida, you're an idiot, it's all becoming clear...!
IrishJT said:
posted on January 22, 2007 2:53 PM — 65.83.54.4 — link — abuse?
i do love that we're continuing to discuss the irish and how everyone hates them, they're over-rated, over-hyped and over-publicized. Florida won the national title and NOBODY is talking about them. The only conversation is whether their coach will ditch their team. What a joke?
TampaGator said:
posted on January 22, 2007 4:16 PM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
IrishJT:
"...That just shows your ignorance. You didn't go to Florida, you're an idiot..." Exactly which part of "...my alma mater" was lost on you, rocket-boy?
…which begs the question: are you a ND alumnus, or just Irish wanna-be? I’m guessing not, if you’re stuck in Ala-freak’n-bama (If anyone reading this post wants a good laugh, check out the Alabama blogs—just watch for flying tobacco juice…).
As for talk'n about ND--seems to me we're talking more about the Gators than ND, in ND's blog thread. We're just doing it here to ever so subtly flaunt Coach Meyer in your sad, pathetic, green-with-envy Irish faces!
Go Gators!!!P.S.--did I mention I like Notre Dame?
TampaGator said:
posted on January 22, 2007 4:21 PM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
GatorMatt/#45:
In looking back at my prior post, it appears I didn't fully develop the thought I was seeking to express. My point was this: Meyer didn't win with X's and O's this year; the Gators won with fight and grit--which Meyer coached out of his players. I absolutley love that!
Sure, the team had talent; but the Gators have ALWAYS had talent...ALWAYS!! Where Gators lost in the past, was in the trenches. We were "out physicalled" by teams like UGA, FSU, Miami (even though we always had as much, sometimes more talent). This year, no one pushed the Gators around; no one outlasted them; no one beat them up or beat them down...no one! In other words, Meyer was able to win even when the X's and O's weren't working out as planned, because of the fight and grit he instilled in his players in the off season. I'll take fight and grit over X's and O's all week long and twice on Sunday!
GO GATORS!!!M GO BLUE said:
posted on January 22, 2007 4:36 PM — 216.46.213.215 — link — abuse?
yo IrishJT, what are your expectations for Notre Dame next season?
I think you will torch Michigan State, but do you think they have a chance of beating Michigan who has fourth year starters at RB and QB?Also I will tell you, Happy valley in in Pennsylvania will single handedly beat teams.
What about USC?
Personally I think the Irish will lose 3 games Next season
1 - At Michigan
2 - At Penn st. (playing two away games at the two largest stadiums in the country against teams returning most of their players OUCH!)
3 - USC simply too goodNotre Dame - 9-3 next season and headed for the sun bowl.
TampaGator said:
posted on January 22, 2007 4:45 PM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
GatorPilon/#45:
[previously misdirected to GatorMatt]In looking back at my prior post, it appears I didn't fully develop the thought I was seeking to express. My point was this: Meyer didn't win with X's and O's this year; the Gators won with fight and grit--which Meyer coached out of his players. I absolutley love that!
Sure, the team had talent; but the Gators have ALWAYS had talent...ALWAYS!! Where Gators lost in the past, was in the trenches. We were "out physicalled" by teams like UGA, FSU, Miami (even though we always had as much, sometimes more talent). This year, no one pushed the Gators around; no one outlasted them; no one beat them up or beat them down...no one! In other words, Meyer was able to win even when the X's and O's weren't working out as planned, because of the fight and grit he instilled in his players in the off season. I'll take fight and grit over X's and O's all week long and twice on Sunday!
GO GATORS!!!
clemson1981 said:
posted on January 22, 2007 5:13 PM — 74.242.89.169 — link — abuse?
Irish JT:
hey everybody irish jt sure is a big man picking on a 15 year old uh? boy ill tell ya what this guy is so big and bad its not even funny!!! i know i wouldnt want to be on his bad side!! dude get over it, your arguements make no sense, you could be classified under the category of idiot. now on my grammar, for the 500th time im not writing a letter to the president, ok? ok. and mine and diggs writing cant be too bad considering you understand it clearly enough to respond. now for the last time i dont think anybody on here cares about your opinion. notice everybody does not agree with you and people think your arguments are just plain stupid and pointless, now your current argument of meyer and the title in south bend is stupid, does meyer have a contract with ND? now everybody who reads this think, urban meyer, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA HEAD COACH, not nd head coach, that unfortunate distiction belongs to ol fat charlie, so for the last time irish jt, notre dame is a HAS BEEN!!! your arguments are pointless, now on your post 61 YOU, you irish jt brought this up so dont say US, we could care less about your opinion, now go to bed in your brady quinn pj's and watch your VHS of notre dames last bowl win, come and talk to everybody when your team wins a big game.clemson1981 said:
posted on January 22, 2007 6:33 PM — 74.242.89.169 — link — abuse?
M GO BLUE:
i have a question, it really has nothing to do with this but is michigan loud, b/c ive heard that it really isnt that loud sometimes, but i mean 110,000 people it has to be loud. im just wondering, not knockin ya team or nothing.Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 22, 2007 9:50 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Notre Dame 2007 is losing...
@ Penn St (improved)
@ Michigan
@ UCLA (much improved)
vs Boston C ('trap game' - its after two Road games & before USC/rival game)
vs USC... They'll get better by Bowl time and win a mid-Bowl game.
Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 22, 2007 10:24 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Is it just me or is NFL Coaching being Out-Classed by College Football Coaching?
No Bill Cowher
No Bill ParcellsDennis Erickson, Nick Saban, Butch Davis are all back in College Football from the NFL... and they're all National Championship-caliber Coaches.
Guys like 32-Year-old Steve Sarkisian (USC QB Coach), who have never even been Head Coaches in College are Turning Down Head Coaching Offers by NFL teams!@
GatorMatt said:
posted on January 23, 2007 1:27 AM — 68.101.77.114 — link — abuse?
Post 69,
You know as well as I do that Notre Dame will get destroyed against any decent team they play, but they sure as hell won't be in a mid bowl game. They could end up 8-4, and they would still be ranked 12th somehow, and make it to a BCS game, get destroyed and lost their 10th straight bowl game, and still be ranked in the top 15. That's how it works every year for the "has beens" that are Notre Dame
The Mayor said:
posted on January 23, 2007 2:52 AM — 24.7.54.200 — link — abuse?
M Go Blue:
"Notre Dame - 9-3 next season and headed for the sun bowl."
I thought the Sun Bowl was strictly Big-10 vs Pac-10? I think 9-3 is a stretch for the Irish and the Sun Bowl is impossible.
But, I'd love for my Ducks to get another chance at Notre Dame, whether it be in the Sun Bowl, or any Bowl, this season. It will be 25 years since those Irish went for the "tie" instead of the win on the last play of the game in Eugene in 1982!
IrishJT said:
posted on January 23, 2007 8:52 AM — 71.207.226.16 — link — abuse?
Mich Go Blue,
I think the Irish will struggle all year in 2007. They are young on both sides of the ball, regardless of the 9 seniors returning (they are, after all, Ty Willingham seniors). Jimmy Clausen may be our starter and freshman don't win 12 games...not even in the Big East.Michigan has a great chance to make a run for the NT next year, so "NO" i don't think the Irish will be them in Ann Arbor. However, I think the Irish will win upset USC in South Bend. Notre Dame will win 8 or 9 games and go to the GATOR BOWL (who said the Sun Bowl...come on!). Once again, Ty Willingham will be fired after next season at Washington. I hope his college coaching career is over and we never hear from him again...HE'S JUST THAT BAD!!!
By the way Tampa Gator, I graduated Notre Dame in '95 cum laude.
M GO BLUE said:
posted on January 23, 2007 8:57 AM — 216.46.213.92 — link — abuse?
The Mayor, This year the Sun bowl, featured Oregon State, and Missouri, so I got on sunbowl.org and as far as I can tell, their new partner's are the Big 12 and the big east.
The Big Ten has a new bowl partner in the Champs sports bowl, in Orlando florida.But I thought I saw somewhere that if the Irish, did not get a BCS bid, that they could get a sun bowl?
M GO BLUE said:
posted on January 23, 2007 9:10 AM — 216.46.213.92 — link — abuse?
Clemson1981, as for loudness,the Big House is not as loud as Spartan stadium for Michigan state, which holds 80,000, partly because of stadium design and partly because the fans sit on their hands and clap instead of screaming.
Michigan stadium and the Big House has not been about loudness,it's been about WHO has won soooo many games on that field in front of record setting 112,500 fans,As for Penn st, they will have 110,000 on hand for the ND game, and there is no stadium with more atmosphere than Penn st.
TampaGator said:
posted on January 23, 2007 5:39 PM — 205.188.116.133 — link — abuse?
IrishJT/#73:
Congratulations--so "rocket boy" really fits?
I was giving you crap because you were going after the kid, which struck me as a "cheap shot"....kind of like (and hence) my shots at Alabama. (Nothing wrong with 'bama, although I was serious about their blogs--you should check them out for entertainment...but then I guess you can just go down to the local watering hole to witness it first hand, right?)I think your assessment of ND next year is accurate. Re. '08: I think they will make a serious run at NC, although I don't quite share your confidence in them winning it--simply because it's to far down the road.
P.S.--did you pick up a copy of SI's commerative issue of ND football that came out at beginning of season? If not, you should; very flattering for ND football.
chicagocane said:
posted on January 25, 2007 2:24 PM — 71.201.45.32 — link — abuse?
weis @ nd=.760 willingham @ nd= .583 if weis ever falls to .583 - then weis will be fired!
chicagocane said:
posted on January 25, 2007 2:28 PM — 71.201.45.32 — link — abuse?
WEIS @ ND= .760 ty @ ND = .583 if weis ever falls to .583 he will be fired!
Gatorboy40 said:
posted on January 29, 2007 7:14 PM — 138.163.160.42 — link — abuse?
Irishjt (post 25) What does weis Superbowl rings has do with him winning in college. Dave Wanstadt, has a couple of Superbowl rings when he coached under Jimmy Johnson at Dallas, but he sure can't win at Pitt. With all the preseaon over rankings that the Irish get every season, I am sure that they will eventully pull through. However, in all honesty, I just cn't see why all the hype about Weis being so great. Not saying he is a bad coach, but to say that he is great, is grossly way off target.
tommyswifeisirish said:
posted on February 6, 2007 3:19 PM — 208.111.196.153 — link — abuse?
God bless the irish fans in this blog, you have an understanding and opinion of the team you follow. We all have our own unigue opinions about the team we love! So what the hell are the opinions of those that love other teams doing on this site? are you all a wanna be? Go to your favorite teams blog and voice your opinions there because we irish fans care not to here about them! We are here to intellectualy discuss are beloved Irish Football Team so Goodbye!
clemson1981 said:
posted on February 6, 2007 6:41 PM — 74.226.199.37 — link — abuse?
post 85:
somebody help me out does it say anywhere on the site ONLY FANS OF THE NOTRE DAME FIGHTING IRISH CAN POST ON THIS BLOG? no i didnt think so, get over it dude, we all seem to hate ND, and we will continue to post on how much we dont like ND, so you might as well get over it, ill tell you the same thing i told Irish JT, go get in your brady quinn pj's cuddle up with your charlie weis teddy bear and pop in that old VHS of the last time notre dame won a bowl game.tommyswifeisirih said:
posted on February 7, 2007 8:39 PM — 71.207.20.31 — link — abuse?
clemson1981 dude get over it! if you would have intellectualy read what i said, you would have not been so rude! if you have something to say about ND love or hate them then say it! if you want to discuss clemson,florida,alabama etc... then go to their sites! i did click on Notre Dame to come to this site so get over it!
Please note that all comments are subject to the Fanblogs Comment Policy.
Diggs the Mountie said:
posted on January 15, 2007 11:35 AM — 68.48.90.248 — link — abuse?It's not about ethnicity. It's about Weis at least getting notre dame in "Big Games". You see money coming from BCS Bowl talks very loud and proud. Simply put as long as Weis (mostly the media) continues to put notre dame in these Bowl Games then Weis will stay there for years to come.
I'm also not sold on the fact that Ty wasn't fired because of his regular season record. Like I said, as long as Weis has a decent regular season against scrubs, and the media takes care of the rest (hyping the to the "Big Games").... then Weis will be there for years.