October 23, 2007
Comparing Willingham & Weis
Jon Wilner at the San Jose Mercury's blog looks at a comparison of former Notre Dame head coach Ty Willingham against current Irish head coach Charlie Weis through 33 games.
The results? Well, judge for yourself.
***Record through 33 gamesWillingham: 20-13
Weis: 20-13***Record vs USC
Willingham: 0-3
Weis: 0-3***Point differential vs USC
Willingham: -93
Weis: -61***Record vs. Michigan
Willingham: 2-1
Weis: 1-2***Point differential vs. Michigan
Willingham: -28
Weis: -57***Record vs. ranked opponents
Willingham: 7-8
Weis: 4-8 with no ranked opponents left
(Numbers based on rankings listed in the UND media guide for 2002-2006)***Losses by 20 points or more
Willingham: 8 in 36 games
Weis: 7 in 33 games***Losses by 30 points or more
Willingham: 5 in 36 games
Weis: 3 in 33 games
It's hard to see a clear favorite there - seems pretty close. Of course, Willingham was fired by the Irish, so that can't bode well for Weis, can it?
Wilner goes on to note that Weis is making his mark upon the Notre Dame football history books:
* Worst opening-day loss ever (33-3 to Georgia Tech)* Worst start ever (0-5)
* Worst loss to USC (38-0)
* Worst home loss in 51 year (38-0 to USC)
Oh, and don’t forget the seven-game losing streak and those five consecutive 20-point losses, both of which date to last season.
The Irish Kool-Aid crowd would say this is "too close to call", but I'll go out on that limb anyway -- by every standard of Notre Dame football, the Charlie Weis experiment has been a failure.
Jeff Carroll of the South Bend Tribune asks where's the progress?
During Tyrone Willingham's short era on the Irish sideline, people were practically throwing themselves off the Golden Dome after three consecutive 31-point defeats to the Trojans.So how, then, does 38 do you?
Notre Dame was officially eliminated from bowl contention on Saturday, as if there was much doubt. The Irish have lost nine of the last 10 games they've played, by an average of more than 24 points a shot. And let's call the one victory, at UCLA two weeks ago, what it was in light of what we've seen since -- a fluke.
The offense is the worst in the country in nearly every statistical category. And if you've watched enough, you know statistics don't even do the ineptitude justice. Isn't offense supposed to be Weis' specialty? Weren't we all, according to Weis himself, going to see how USC coach Pete Carroll managed once it was "Xs and O's time"?
...
Losses have mounted and three players have transferred out of Notre Dame. A fourth, offensive lineman Chris Stewart, gave the idea serious consideration.
And how did Weis respond to the ongoing exodus last week? By saying publicly that, essentially, backups aren't important to him anyway.
At least he's honest. With Weis fielding a veteran team the last two seasons, he made no real effort to get his youngsters ready. He doesn't see beyond the next game. He's said it himself.
Well now the next game is Navy. And if Weis thinks people have been having fun at his expense now ...
The Weis-lovers would have you believe that -- thirty three games into the Weis era -- that the losses are still Willingham's fault. Some of the players are Ty's recruits, after all.
But Carroll will have none of it.
In 2004, Willingham brought in a class, the current seniors, that was ranked No. 32 by Rivals.com. Not acceptable by Notre Dame's standards, that's true.But among the schools ranked behind the Irish that year: Texas Tech. South Carolina. Wisconsin. Virginia Tech. South Florida. Kentucky. West Virginia. Illinois.
Recognize any of those programs? They all seem to have recovered nicely.
Willingham gets a lot of the blame for the '05 class, as well, the current ND juniors. He was fired late in that recruiting cycle, and part of the reason was because of the haul he was assembling, a class that Weis would salvage and that Rivals would rank 40th. Again, not acceptable in South Bend.
But how about a look at a small sampling of the programs ranked behind the Irish that year by the recruiting prognosticators? Kansas. Boston College. South Florida -- again. Rutgers. Illinois -- again.
This isn't to say that Notre Dame should be putting a national championship-caliber team on the field this season. The upper classes certainly do leave much to be desired. But there is no excuse -- none, nada -- for 1-7. For 48 yards on 30 carries, eight games in. For 39 sacks allowed in eight contests, already a school record and counting.
OUTSTANDING POINTS by Carroll and I want to spend just a moment here, because it is often just thrown out there as presumption that Willingham left the cupboard bare.
2004 (this year's seniors) ... Rivals #32 ... ranked ahead of Texas Tech. South Carolina. Wisconsin. Virginia Tech. South Florida. Kentucky. West Virginia. Illinois. How is it even possible that these teams can put a winner on the field and Notre Dame -- who out recruited them -- cannot. How?
2005... (this year's juniors) ... Rivals #40 ... combined Willingham/Weis class ... ranked ahead of Kansas. Boston College. South Florida. Rutgers. Illinois. Again, how is it possible for these teams to be contending for conference/national championships, and yet Notre Dame cannot win a game to save their lives?
Charlie Weis is an outstanding offensive mind - without question - but he is failing as a head coach.
There is nothing in his resume to suggest that Weis is capable of developing talent. He certainly didn't have to develop players in the NFL, just show them the plays, tweak here & there, and collect the trophies. But now - with his team needing it the most - Weis is not developing talent at Notre Dame.
Good recruits are coming into the Notre Dame system and - but for their own inner passion to excel - languishing under Weis. There is no such thing as marked improvement, it is simply a transaction with Weis. It almost as if the recruits are NFL free agents, signing with the team and then expected to use their talents to improve the team. There's nothing to suggest that Weis is actually taking a player from one level and ELEVATING his game to the next level. And this is Weis's Achilles' heel - he isn't developing players.
If the powers that be at Notre Dame don't recognize this fundamental weakness (or weakness in fundamentals, to be more exact), then Notre Dame will continue to languish.
Comments:
1GatorMatt
posted on October 23, 2007 5:11 PM — 70.171.18.91 — link — abuse?
said:
I am absolutely loving this. Anyone remember IrishJT? I had absolutely now qualms with the Irish until I had to read his delusional postings. From what I got from him, the Irish are the greatest team in college football. We all had to remind him that this isn't the '40s anymore. I haven't seen him around in awhile. Wonder why?
On the note of Charlie Weis....he's fugking pitiful. He's an offensive genius.....yet the Irish haven't exactly mustered any offense. They're averaging in 10 points a game, and not all of those points came via offense. I just love how the media darlings are taking such a terrible turn. I'm curious how long it takes for NBC to buy out that ridiculous contract of theirs
posted on October 23, 2007 5:38 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?War Eagle Atlanta
said:
I hope I live long enough to see the Irish refused a renewal with the Notre Dame Broadcasting Co. (NBC) and have to compete on the fair market for games televised.
Maybe Bravo might pick up the option instead, since they're owned by NBC. "Queer Eye for the Irish" sounds like a good promo... Watch Irish football along with reruns of the West Wing!
TampaGator said:
posted on October 23, 2007 6:10 PM — 71.101.63.118 — link — abuse?
"...There is nothing in his resume to suggest that Weis is capable of developing talent. He certainly didn't have to develop players in the NFL, just show them the plays, tweak here & there, and collect the trophies. But now - with his team needing it the most - Weis is not developing talent at Notre Dame...."
Excellent insight Kevin; I think you're dead on.
I've posted before--I think ND HAS the talent to compete; they're just soft, and poorly prepared (you say tomato, I say 'mater).
I don't care for Weis--he clearly sucks as HC (and I damn sure didn't care at all for that "may God strike me dead" comment, but that's kind of an aside...)--
--however, there are two significant factors to differentiate the Weis situation from the W'ham situation (not Weis from W'ham, just the situation 3 years in):
1. There's no Urban Meyer baiting Notre Dame to can its coach; and
2. He supposedly has a pile of talent ready to come aboard.
Devils ad: who should Notre Dame look to replace Weis with?
...and if so, doesn't ND risk losing those recruits and starting from point zero again?
...and what of that pesky little 10 year monstrosity they gave Weis? Can they (even mighty Notre Dame) afford to blow that kind of jack?
Frankly, I think ND has made its bed; their only solution is to keep Weis in place, and get some good managing folks under him (and get those kids the hell out of that marshmallow making in-door practice facility).
My $.02
GO GATORS!!gatorstud said:
posted on October 23, 2007 6:12 PM — 72.69.2.100 — link — abuse?
will the navy game be the deciding factor ????????
the notre dame fans that i have been talking to have said that the navy game will determine a lot for them.....charlie is losing face real quick here in northern indiana.....
i went into my favorite breakfast restraunt saturday morning and heard the older gentlemen talking about the hoosiers football team instead of notre dame.....ND fans are quickly turning on charlie.....and getting spanked by USC sure as hell didn't help......
all i can say is that the air around here is getting stale......and it smells like a rotting cheesburger.....
go gators...and hokies (bye-bye boston college)
Bevo Boy said:
posted on October 23, 2007 6:59 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
IU has had quite a year this year, so I could see them getting some attention, but yes, the Navy game probably is the deciding factor. ND has beaten Navy 43 straight times (longest active streak) and that means a lot to ND fans. They'd probably be angrier than the gamblers who bet on UK against UF when it would've been a push if UK had kicked the p.a.t. I wonder if some of the UK coaches bet against themselves so decided that they shouldn't kick it, a.k.a Pete Rose.
GatorMatt
posted on October 24, 2007 9:21 AM — 128.227.78.72 — link — abuse? said:
#8,
I can't agree with that. When Notre Dame fields a decent team, they snub a deserving team out of a BCS bid. I believe Notre Dame was ranked 12th (undeservably), and yet they still managed to get into a BCS bowl because of their fan base. And what happened? We were treated to a Sugar Bowl that wasn't even a game
TampaGator said:
posted on October 24, 2007 9:24 AM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Gatorpilot/#8:
Agreed on all counts.
Gatorstud/#7:"...and it smells like a rotting cheesburger..."
LOL!
Though I maintain I think it's simply not feasible for ND to fire Weis, even if he finishes 1-11. The only way it would happen this season, is if it came down to Weis or the NBC contract .
My $.02
GO GATORS!!TampaGator said:
posted on October 24, 2007 9:56 AM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
GatorMatt/#9:
Perhaps, but the interest level in CFB in general is piqued when Notre Dame is competitive. Not just their fan base, but the ND haters come out in force. It's just good for CFB.
Besides, you can't deny Notre Dame holds a unique and special place in Americana:
1. Most NC's and H-mans;
2. Largest and broadest fan following--by far;
3. "Knute Rockne, All American"--not just a classic movie, but it served as a springboard for a 2-term US president;
4. Rudy;
5. Catholics v. Protestants;
6. Touchdown Jesus, the fight song (once the 4th most recongnized song in America--behind God Bless American, National anthem, and America the Beautiful...), wake up the echoes, shake down the thunder, subway alumni, etc...All of which contribute to how ND piques interest in CFB.
Interesting sidenote:
1GatorMatt
TampaGator
Gatorstud
GatorPilot
GatorMattWhole lotta' Gators on this thread, considering it's not related to UF or SEC.
GO GATORS!!RedRaiderRich said:
posted on October 24, 2007 10:56 AM — 69.62.30.113 — link — abuse?
I have never been a ND fan, but I did like the job Willingham was doing and felt he was wrongly fired. I never saw Weiss as the "offensive genius" that ESPN anointed him either (how can you be an offensive genius if most of your big games were won by a last minute field goal?). If ND decides to keep Weiss then it will be hypocritical and detrimental to the program.
40 Acres of Burnt Orange
posted on October 24, 2007 5:33 PM — 192.94.94.105 — link — abuse? said:
@16 coach cheeseburger? lmao! I think Notre Dame got rid of willingham way too soon and wow cheeseburger had two good season's with willingham's team. Now that were seeing the cheeseburger's brilliant recruiting team kind of like back in the 90's when stupid jerry jones fired jimmy johnson after winning 2 super bowls and let that ole okie come in there and win a super bowl with jimmy's team. After it became Barry's team it all went to s#%t! By the way did anyone else get excited about another texas team beating down adrian peterson? I enjoyed it.
hrposon said:
posted on October 24, 2007 11:24 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@ 16 Ramblin Gator - A Gator accusing Notre Dame of racism...
How many black head coaches has UF had?Willingham's problem was he wasn't winning at ND. Come to think of it, he's not winning at Washington either. I'm wondering which SEC school will be asking him to be the head coach for after his gig is up in Seattle.
Notre Dame treated Willingham a whole lot better than Florida treated Ron Zook.
Lennie Collins
posted on October 25, 2007 3:57 AM — 67.67.197.165 — link — abuse? said:
Hey Hrposon(Comment #18) Look at the records after 33 games. Looks like Chuckie is not winning either! Is this year the worst year in Norte Dame history? If Notre Dame loses to Navy and/or Duke then what will be said about Ol Chuckie then?
TampaGator said:
posted on October 25, 2007 5:56 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Hrposon/#18(&19):
"...Notre Dame treated Willingham a whole lot better than Florida treated Ron Zook..."
Not true at all.
W'ham was a head coach with decent credentials before ND tapped him for the job. Not exactly a great W/L rec at Stanford, but at least some accomplishment--he had Stanford playing above itself, and had stepped up recruiting there. ND figured he could do better with better talent--and ND's name for recruiting.
Zook had no HC experience, and was a SPECIAL TEAMS coach in NFL for New Orleans. He got the job out of desperation--since the 'ol ball coach left us high and dry.
Accordingly, W'ham was given a chance he fairly earned, and Zook was given a chance he simply did not deserve.
What's more, the two coaches performed similarly in terms of W/L records over the same period; Zook with a much better infrastructure in place post Spurrier, than W'ham, post Davie.
So not only did Zook get a position he didn't deserve; he failed to earn his keep with said opportunity, under more favorable circumstances.
As for W'ham--I agree; I've posted before, his termination had nothing at all to do with race. IMO, Notre Dame tripped over itself in trying to get Urban Meyer. If Meyer wasn't on the market, W'ham gets his 5 years. Nothing at all to do with race.
Ironically (or is it coincidentally)--Notre Dame found itself in a similar situation to UF after Spurrier left us-albeit by its own doing.
In other words, they hired Weis out of the same desperation that UF hired Zook. So I for one, don't fault them for hiring Weis, given the situation they were in (notwithstanding how they go there).
Where they screwed the pooch, was in giving him 10 years, before he proved himself. They're stuck with him (unless NBC says "he gotta' go", he's there for at least the foreseeable future). They'll have to work with him in place--like FSU/Bowden--by revamping the assistant coaching staff.
'preciate the props for prior post;
re. "cats v. cons"--that was just one year--I almost threw that in, but since UM had more cats on its roster than ND that year, and both had the same # of cons (zero), I went with--"cats v. pros", since it's perpetual (including run-ins with the KKK in the early part of the 20th c).
GO GATORS!!
Ramblin' Gator said:
posted on October 25, 2007 8:00 AM — 74.185.133.40 — link — abuse?
#18 hrposon: In fairness, UF has not had a black head football coach, but they have had a number of black and hispanic assitants, including the current co-defensive coordinator, Charlie Strong. Strong was a holdover from the last head coach and would have been easy to cast aside, but Meyer kept him on staff and the defense has been better for it.
I wouldn't compare Willingham's dismissal to Zook's as the circumstances were very different, but TampaGator did a nice job of it (#21).
hrposon said:
posted on October 25, 2007 8:33 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@21 TampaGator - Both Willingham and Zook were both head head coaches of top flight football programs. How they got to that lofty position really doesn't matter in terms of how they get forced out.
I'll stand by my statement, Willinghan was treated better the Zook.You're right about the Cats vs. KKKs.
hrposon said:
posted on October 25, 2007 8:51 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@22 RamblinGator - It's nice that UF has Black and Hispanic coaches. Name a major college football program that doesn't.
If you're trying to RECRUIT, coach and counsel black athletes, it makes good sense not to have a bunch Good Ole Boys.You didn't address your slur about Notre Dame and racism.
TampaGator said:
posted on October 26, 2007 9:24 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
"...@21 TampaGator - Both Willingham and Zook were both head head coaches of top flight football programs. How they got to that lofty position really doesn't matter in terms of how they get forced out..."
Sure; ingore context in terms treatment of Zook v. W'ham to support your statement...
...but if we ignore context, then W'ham's termination within 5 years (Notre Dame's tradition)--reaks of racism.
Can't have it both ways there, chief.
b/t/w:
Did W'ham get in a fight with a fraternity?
Did W'ham's players constantly run afoul of the law?
Was Zook "...a great coach from Sunday through Saturday?"
Did Bob Davie leave a solid infrastructure in place for W'ham to build on?
Did Spurrier leave a program in disarray that Zook was called upon to resurrect?
Did W'ham's winning percentage deviate signicantly from his predecessor's (while Zook's did--but in the wrong direction)?
Nope (To all of them).
....and Zook wasn't qualified for the position from the beginning--but WAS given a fair chance to earn it. He failed; he was in over his head.
Look, I liked the guy, and I didn't really support his ouster, until...
[pause for effect]
...Urban Meyer came on the radar--that's why I can relate to why Notre Dame canned W'ham when they did.
The undercurrent against W'ham at ND didn't pick up momentum, nor get as ugly as it got--until Meyer's miraculous run at Utah began making its way into the mainstream--along with constant mention of the notorious "Notre Dame out" clause, baiting and tempting Notre Dame Nation with each of Utah's wins and playing of the highlights (I probably watched as much Utah FB in '04 as UF).
The truth is in the Context; deny it at your own peril
...but I am glad to have you aboard--no one else seems willing to post for the Irish--and when that happens, your Irish get stuck with my--shall we say, orange and blue tainted--perspective.
b/t/w: what are your thoughts on Charlie Weis? (I think he's equivalent of Zook to UF).
GO GATORS!!
hrposon said:
posted on October 26, 2007 10:51 PM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@25 TampaGator - A lot there to digest...
I guess we both hold Notre Dame to a higher standard than most other schools.I believe Charlie Weis is a good coach, but at a top flight program, you need that little extra that he doesn't have. I'll be surprised if he goes past 2008. Actually, I'd like to see Greg Schiano get the job.
I did realize that I was walking into a Gator's swamp, but..., I did that before at the 1992 Sugar Bowl. :-)
TampaGator said:
posted on October 29, 2007 9:26 AM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?
Hr/#27:
Shiano would be a good fit; however, his people (as I understand it) are in NY/NJ area, and he shot down his alma mater (Miami). I don't think he'd bite.
Re. "...I guess we both hold Notre Dame to a higher standard than most other schools..."
I'm not holdig ND to higher standard (I never faulted them for canning W'ham; merely replied to your suggestion that it was more justified than Zook)--I'm just reading the terrain as I see it.
Media and ND administration are the one's holding ND FB to the lofty standard--and I don't think it's warranted. When Rock made ND what it is, ND was considered a poor/working man's college--as it was through Leahy era, and into perseghian. No Ivy league pretense.
The new standard is a media creation with ND admin as willing accomplice.
I think Weis is a solid coordinator--not a coach though. ND is stuck with him as figure head; they need to get COACHES under him to get those players hitting on all cylinders (hell, even half speed would be better than what Weis is getting out them now).
My $.02.
GO GATORS!!hrposon said:
posted on November 3, 2007 7:18 AM — 98.200.123.115 — link — abuse?
@30 TampaGator - The fact that everyone is talking about, praising and beating up on Notre Dame shows that everyone all hold them to a higher standard.
Look at Minnesota, 6 times the number of undergrads, 1 and 8 this year, and no one cares. Just another Big 10 powerhouse on the tOSU schedule and still getting over $1M from the BCS.
Zac said:
posted on October 23, 2007 5:11 PM — 209.36.193.14 — link — abuse?I stand with those who didn’t give Willingham enough time. There was a lot said about a lack of real recruiting; that eventually Ty’s recruiting habits would have caught up with him. Funny, it seems as though most of Weiss’ success came off Ty’s recruits.
The point is, there are coaches who are great offensive or defensive minds who try head coaching only to find offensive or defensive coordinator was their best destiny. You don’t know until you try. The question remains: Will ND give Weiss more leverage than they gave Willingham?
Of course, it have nothing to do with talent as a coach. It could well be it’s because the last names of these 2 men start with a “W”, which should refer to “winner”, but is apparently jinxed.
Hey, it’s no more far fetched than Kev saying he’s going out on a limb by saying, “…by every standard of Notre Dame football, the Charlie Weis experiment has been a failure.” Yeah, I know that limb. It’s about 4’ in diameter, 6’ long, and maybe 4’ off the ground. I’ll take that anytime.
This doesn’t change the fact that 3 seasons isn’t much of a chance. As stated in another thread, look how long it took for Greg Schiano to get Rutgers where it is right now. But, what a place to be in. Fire Weiss, and what decent coach will want to come there. Give him another season, and Ty has the right to call “Foul” (And that ain’t no chicken joke.).
What ever is decided, if anyone of any position at ND will listen, do it fair; do it honorably. Just a thought.