October 2, 2007
South Florida: Success by shortcuts?
With the Bulls rapid ascent in the polls comes the naysayers, boo-birds, poo-poo-ers, and haters.
Count Alabama Coach Nick Saban as a hater. Saban said that USF has attained its lofty status so quickly by taking shortcuts, such as lowering academic standards for athletes in order to win now.
"The distribution of players is not the same for everybody," said Alabama head coach Nick Saban. "There's a significant amount of players who don't qualify (at some schools) and they end up being pretty good players at some other schools. I think there are six guys starting on South Florida's defense who probably could have gone to Florida or Florida State but Florida and Florida State couldn't take them. And if you do a good job of recruiting that way ..."Saban stopped there, but the implication is obvious: If you recruit that way you get players that are good enough to elevate a program in a hurry.
Birmingham News sports columnist Ray Melick dives deeper.
What concerns coaches is that some schools appear to be willing to admit athletes based on the NCAA minimum, while other schools hold their athletes to standards that are higher than the NCAA minimum, creating a very real advantage-disadvantage in recruiting....
Flexible admissions standards are the truly great equalizer in creating parity in athletics.
So... that's the hater spin. Let's look at it from a more realistic standpoint.
The Bulls recruit hard, but they have some hurdles to overcome: very little history/heritage, non-existent campus atmosphere, off-campus stadium, poorly attended games, and a pro-sports town that rarely notices USF in any sport.
Throw Florida, Florida State, Miami, Central Florida, Florida Atlantic, and Florida International into the mix - and you've got some pretty heavy competition for recruits. Now throw EVERY COLLEGE IN THE NATION into the mix and you can see just how difficult recruiting must be for the Bulls.
USF has built its program from the ground up in eleven years. Lee Roy Selmon's legacy is a foundation to build a college football program that can compete on the national level. And the Bulls are getting there.
You want to hate on the Bulls, Nick Saban et al, then go right ahead.
USF is following the letter and spirit of the NCAA rules. And winning.
Hat Tip: Da Wiz
Update
Via EDSBS, USF Jim Leavitt sets the record (and Nick Saban) straight:
"Of 110 players, we have two nonqualifiers, one starts, one doesn't," Leavitt said. "The Big East doesn't allow nonqualifiers. For a guy to make a mistake like that is not right."I'm not down on [Saban]. Whoever gave him that information needs to correct it. Certainly this person [Birmingham News reporter Ray Melick], what right does he have to write an article without verifying all the facts. This is why I get disturbed sometimes, because now this article goes out.
"It's an absolute wrong to do that."
The Tampa Tribune notes that at least three former Saban recruits play for the Bulls - but all three ended up at USF - two to be closer to home and one as a Juco transfer.
Comments:
Hotty Toddy said:
posted on October 2, 2007 1:04 PM — 75.105.128.39 — link — abuse?
I wouldn't be so quick to say USF wouldn't take FSU, Florida, or Miami.
I don't think they could take all three of them right now, but one out of the three (maybe 2) is definately possible. They're a great team from what all i've seen.
Seminole Jack said:
posted on October 2, 2007 1:11 PM — 66.147.117.53 — link — abuse?
I do not think that USF would have a chance to beat UF.
But they have a pretty solid defense from watching the West Virginia Game and FSU and Miami have had problems moving the ball this year. Although FSU did show some signs with Xavier the Savior in the game last week.
But they are not a top ten team, no way. You can not tell me that there are only 5 teams in the country or so who are better than USF.
In regards to the recruiting, I think that schools can use whatever admissions standard that they want to use. But using the lower standard will put a stigma on your program.
Lets be real here, the colleges were not founded to win football games they were founded to educate the youth of America. Winning football games is a bonus. I think that colleges should not sacrafice their admission standards for recruiting of athletes but we all know that they do it. If you do win with the higher standards then you have more to be proud of.
shiguy said:
posted on October 2, 2007 1:46 PM — 157.182.42.182 — link — abuse?
personally i don't think they have the bragging rights that they think they did. anyone who watched the game would know that WVU beat themselves almost more than USF did. don't get me wrong USF did well and we knew they would, but if you look at the numbers WVU really should have won. in almost every statistic (other than total points) WVU hate USF beat. judging by the numbers you wouldn't have thought that USF won. however, though in some botched plays at key times and you get the end result. i put most of the blame on dent the center lineman who was snapping the ball. i know that there were other who had bad a bad night, staton, white, reynold, all of them had their problems. but these problems were for the most part corrected with plays that worked. dent on the other hand botched about 6 plays by my count. granted not all of them resulted in a huge loss like the one on the USF 2 yard line (a remote was thrown at that poing) but there are several times where the ball was thrown back to white or brown in a way that was very difficult for the to gain control of resulting in bad hand offs and slow plays. why he was not taken out is still a question i want answered. mozes his predicesor threw two high in his first start and was told if he did again they were going to pull him. so why was dent allowed to continue after making mistake after mistake? ok enough of my rant.
AUTigers03 said:
posted on October 2, 2007 2:10 PM — 74.239.251.222 — link — abuse?
Nick Satan should keep his mouth shut. It's not like Alabama has a high academic standard. South Florida is doing what it has to build a program within the rules set down by the NCAA. Now if they start breaking those rules then OK let'em have it. Ole Nick is just jealous after his team has lost two in a row.
TampaTiger said:
posted on October 2, 2007 2:37 PM — 24.96.199.254 — link — abuse?
Why in the world is Saban even commenting on USF? I would think that his hands are pretty full in trying to rebuild Bama's program...wouldn't you? Maybe his contract stipulates that he has to play the part of "hall monitor" for the NCAA, who knows? Him and Fulmer seem to have alot in common.....we can call them Team Tattle Tale!
40 Acres of Burnt Orange
posted on October 2, 2007 4:59 PM — 192.91.75.30 — link — abuse?
said:
Seminole Jack hit this nail right on the head especially when it comes to educating the youth of America. I think USF deserves the credit of beating 2 good teams. Now do i think they can compete with Miami, Florida, or FSU? Not a chance.
TampaTiger said:
posted on October 2, 2007 6:03 PM — 24.96.199.254 — link — abuse?
I understand that he has performed well at the schools he's been at...what I'm refuting is his "hero" status. I believe that the "hero" status you speak of is something Bama fans have vomitted all over the college football scene from the moment he even thought of being a Bammer. The man is a talented coach, yes, but all the rest of us are asking is that Bama fans hold off on claiming the second coming of Bear Bryant until he at least makes it through his first season! We're not hating on Saban himself(other than when he makes halarious comments such as those in this article), it's the constant immortalizing garbage that Bama fans have been spewing since he was hired that we're hating on. Let the man cash his first pay check at least!
1st_and_NOLE
posted on October 2, 2007 6:37 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
Leavitt fires back at Saban over comments
USF coach Jim Leavitt took particular exception Tuesday to published comments made by Alabama coach Nick Saban that suggested USF's success has been possible by signing players -- potentially six defensive starters, Saban alleged -- who couldn't qualify academically at other schools.
"Coach Saban and I, we've always had a good relationship, but to sit there and tell the world something that he doesn't know. ...What gives this guy the right to write this story?" Leavitt said after his weekly news conference.
Leavitt ran through his defensive starters, one by one, reiterating that only two players, defensive ends Jarriett Buie and Woody George, were accepted as nonqualifiers. Both are in their fourth year in the program and on course to graduate.
"I could go on and on. Out of our whole team, 110 players, we have two non-qualifiers on the team. One starts, one doesn't," he said. "Farther than that, the Big East doesn't allow non-qualifiers, the SEC, look that up, I believe they do. For a guy to make a statement like that is ... is not right. It's a knock on our program."
Saban made comments to the Birmingham News in Tuesday's editions. "There's a significant amount of players who don't qualify (at some schools) and they end up being pretty good players at some other schools. I think there are six guys starting on South Florida's defense who probably could have gone to Florida or Florida State but Florida and Florida State couldn't take them. And if you do a good job of recruiting that way."
Leavitt said he did not plan to speak with Saban, but felt a need to clear the air about the academic standards set by USF and the Big East and the reputation of his football program.
"I'm not down on (Saban), but whoever's giving him that information needs to get corrected. And certainly, this person, (columnist) Ray Melick, what right does he have to write an article without verifying the facts? This is why I get disturbed sometimes. Now this article goes out, and everybody throughout the region thinks it's who we are. What really bothers me is it's not right. We've done what we've done because we work extremely hard. We recruit as best we can. It's an absolute wrong thing to do."
==================================================
I copied that article.
1st_and_NOLE
posted on October 2, 2007 6:50 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse? said:
IN OTHER STATE OF FLORIDA FOOTBALL NEWS...
The Gator's defensive captain was arrested and charged with a felony.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3046053
Not good for UF.
OU-Ron
posted on October 2, 2007 7:27 PM — 72.198.24.199 — link — abuse? said:
@14 I'ts not the same subject but related, talking about sports reporters and articles not researched. Example is Gundy with Okla State, the reporter gave mostly her opinions and not facts, but when someone reads it, it becomes a fact, not thinking what damage it can cause the player or players in this case. Sad, but it happens all the time.jmo
GA Boy said:
posted on October 2, 2007 8:29 PM — 97.89.23.224 — link — abuse?
See Sweet Home AL
The man just needs to keep quiet and get you guys back on track. He has diareaha of the mouth. That is why I took a shot at him the other day. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think Mark Richt would have even commented on this if questioned. I like Saban but for my Bama friends sake, I wish he would just shut up and coach.GO DAWGS!!!
Zac said:
posted on October 2, 2007 11:25 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Well, there's a fine kettle of fish. I guess you can get away with slander if you make $4 Mill a year, especially if you're a convicted liar yourself. Freud would have a field day discussing Saben having suffered from transference, given his team isn't any smarter.
In how many languages can any of you say "Sour Grapes"? A program becomes successful, and automatically it's because of an impropriety. USF football wasn't built over night, people. It took 11 years. I don't care how you slice it; that's a big chunk of time.
Finally we get to S FL's chances, as in slim to none, to beating FL, FSU, & Miami in the same season. Real easy to say it can't happen, especially since it's not going to this year. Trust me; if Appy St can beat MI in the Big House, S FL can beat any of the FL schools on their home field. But, don't take my word for it. Why? Because, I don't know any more than the rest of you. Remember; just because it's here in writing, don't make it so.
Clemson Joe said:
posted on October 3, 2007 12:37 AM — 75.182.55.172 — link — abuse?
People, please please please stop calling Appalachian State "Appy State". I have been a fan of the school for the majority of my life, and until they upset Michigan, I have never heard that name. It has been made up by the uninformed. So, unless you'd like to start hearing "West Virgy", "Texey", or perhaps "Lousey State" please grant App State the respect to call them by the nickname they've chosen for themselves. Thank you.
Buckethead said:
posted on October 3, 2007 11:16 AM — 24.73.97.218 — link — abuse?
Will USF contend with Florida, FSU, and UM?
Long answer Yes.
They are in a BCS confrence, and they have a chance to go to a BCS bowl every year. High school football players from Florida are as good as any players in the nation. I do believe there are enough good players in Florida to support 4 programs, and a few other programs around the country. The problem will now be for the Alabama's and other schools when they lose recruits to another instate choice for Florida ball players. Here is hoping that Auburn beats 'Bama to improve the computer rankings for USF. 'Bama fans paid a high price for those Gator Bowl seats.TampaGator said:
posted on October 3, 2007 11:23 AM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
Clemson Joe:
I never heard of Appy State before they beat Michigan. However, my wife was quite familiar with the school, having gone to school near Appy State. The first words out of her mouth when news broke of the big upset was "...Appy State???"
She tells me that's what it is affectionately referred to in and around the area.
No offense intended.
...how about "Clem'y"?
GO GATORS!!Clemson Joe said:
posted on October 3, 2007 2:00 PM — 75.182.55.172 — link — abuse?
TampaGator:
I took some classes at App State. My sister went to school in Western NC, and my cousin graduated from App State. Even at the graduation ceremony, the school was referred to as "App State". Not taking anything away from your wife or where she's from, but it seems very Barry Melrose to call them that. Again, I'd never heard it until the upset.
Go Apps!
roll tide said:
posted on October 3, 2007 9:44 PM — 71.245.116.133 — link — abuse?
The part that Sweet Home Alabama was referring to that was left out is this: "I'm glad, on the other hand, for the players, that they have an opportunity to get an education. ... So there's good and bad, I guess, in all of it."
I suppose it is a little justifying…
I do not believe it was Saban's place to comment on anything going on at South Florida (and I am an Alabama fan as suggested by my name); however, Saban has been extremely cautious in the moves he has made since he left the Dolphins, so he probably had a good reason as to why he would make such a comment or at least why he felt it was his place to try to make justice.
It puts a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth after how much hell weve given Fulmer for his words that caused us probation.
Saban was also highly scrutinized for using the racial slur: coonass. This was also taken out of context. A few days later, he justified his comment. He was telling a story off-the-record and quoted a friend who used the word coonass. I would not be surprised if he comes out in public with a justification of this remark.
This most recent comment, however, did not even make CBS Sportsline. What does that tell you? It tells me that one report did not have his facts straight or proved, and the bigger reporting companies realized that Saban was being falsely criticized so they did not come out with a report against him.
I apologize for writing an essay…
Also, it does not do anybody any good to pick an internet fight with another…
The meaningless trash talk on forums is worthless; ignore it. Please back up your facts with a little support.
roll tide said:
posted on October 3, 2007 9:44 PM — 71.245.116.133 — link — abuse?
The part that Sweet Home Alabama was referring to that was left out is this: "I'm glad, on the other hand, for the players, that they have an opportunity to get an education. ... So there's good and bad, I guess, in all of it."
I suppose it is a little justifying…
I do not believe it was Saban's place to comment on anything going on at South Florida (and I am an Alabama fan as suggested by my name); however, Saban has been extremely cautious in the moves he has made since he left the Dolphins, so he probably had a good reason as to why he would make such a comment or at least why he felt it was his place to try to make justice.
It puts a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth after how much hell weve given Fulmer for his words that caused us probation.
Saban was also highly scrutinized for using the racial slur: coonass. This was also taken out of context. A few days later, he justified his comment. He was telling a story off-the-record and quoted a friend who used the word coonass. I would not be surprised if he comes out in public with a justification of this remark.
This most recent comment, however, did not even make CBS Sportsline. What does that tell you? It tells me that one report did not have his facts straight or proved, and the bigger reporting companies realized that Saban was being falsely criticized so they did not come out with a report against him.
I apologize for writing an essay…
Also, it does not do anybody any good to pick an internet fight with another…
The meaningless trash talk on forums is worthless; ignore it. Please back up your statements with a little support.
Bleed Crimson
posted on October 3, 2007 10:17 PM — 130.160.147.104 — link — abuse? said:
Basically the reason Saban pointed that out is probably because some good recruits he had didnt meet the academic standards at LSU, and so they went to USF instead.
I know that last year we lost a 5 star HB recruit named Mike Ford to USF because his grades sucked. so USF is definitely taking shortcuts, but hey, winning is winning. If they wanna take players that barely graduated high school and are as dumb as a rock, have at em, but i dont want them on my team.but i think we can all agree that USF is waaaayy over rated this year. top 10! gimme a break.
Zac said:
posted on October 4, 2007 9:06 PM — 205.188.116.136 — link — abuse?
CJ (Posts 24 & 27), 1st an apology; there was absolutely no disrespect intended. That having been said, I 1st heard the school referred to as "Appy St" in 1972, when I 1st entered college at good ole West-By-God-Virginy. It was only natural. After all, they share the same mascot as WVU: The Mountaineer. I've heard it ever since. Since my 1st days in college, sports analysts have used it; old college buddies of mine have used it; people at my last three jobs, and now this one, have used it. I honestly didn't know there was a preferred nick-name, let alone that "Appy St" wasn't appreciated. So, reveal said preferred name, and I shalt use it hence forth. Go Mountaineers…all of them!!!
roll tide said:
posted on October 4, 2007 10:02 PM — 71.245.116.133 — link — abuse?
I agree with the academic standards comment, Bleed Crimson (not that the academics could compare to a school like Princeton who also would not its academics for one of the best teams in the nation).
You should not say USF is way overrated. They have proved themselves against competitive teams. They have earned their ranking; however, I am not saying they will not drop back before the end of the season because they probably will. Do not count out possiblities. Remember Boise State!
BossCane said:
posted on October 10, 2007 11:36 PM — 65.11.234.220 — link — abuse?
USF has earned the right to talk, but not to the BIG3, not in-house,not until they have earned their stripes. where is there background? Who the freak are they? Who do they think they are talking to? five wins back to back does not mean that they should sit at this table. try 58 consecutive wins, try 5 national championship, try being a major supplier of NFL 1st rounds; after all that:FIVE WINS IS SIMPLY JUST FIVE WINS.
ATL Bull said:
posted on October 14, 2007 8:15 PM — 98.18.46.80 — link — abuse?
South Florida can't play with FSU, Miami, and Florida... Please! I admit Flordia would definately give us a game and FSU might, but Miami - give me a freakin' break. Have you seen them play this year? One week after we crush UNC, Miami struggles and loses to them. Stop the madness and start believing in a team that has tremendous defense, a true Heisman in Grothe, and has grown by legitimate recruitment.
Please note that all comments are subject to the Fanblogs Comment Policy.
TampaGator said:
posted on October 2, 2007 12:43 PM — 64.12.116.136 — link — abuse?...so that's how they did it!
I like the Bulls, but it's pretty damn funny hearing the Bulls talk smack at the big 3.
They have a good team, and one can not escape the fact that they beat AU at AU, who beat UF at UF...
and by common opponents, it would suggest that USF would beat UF...
...but let's be real; put the Bulls on the same field as the Gators, 'canes or 'noles, even this year--and the Bulls lose.
Not yet, USF; not quite yet.
...but by all means, talk that smack--while you can--you're boys earned it!
GO GATORS!!