January 25, 2007
USC Rent-gate: There are tapes
To paraphrase Orson at Every Day Should be Saturday, the prospect of Reggie Bush being declared ineligible and the turmoil it could bring to USC's national championship season just became more likely.
Yahoo Sports, who has been on the the Reggie Bush Rent-gate trail for nearly a year, has turned up tapes showing that Bush's family demanding free rent and other monetary concessions.
According to multiple sources in an ongoing Yahoo! Sports investigation, nearly $280,000 in cash, rent and gifts was allegedly given to Bush and his family. Lake and Michaels both said in August 2006 that they planned to file a lawsuit against Bush....
Yahoo! Sports has learned that LaMar Griffin [Reggie Bush's stepfather] spoke with federal investigators in the spring of 2006 and acknowledged the existence of the tapes. In an appearance before a grand jury on Jan. 12, 2007, Lake's mother – Barbara Gunner – testified that she had heard portions of tapes made by her son, in which LaMar Griffin states that Bush intended to repay New Era Sports financiers "their money," as well as for a car that was purchased for the former USC running back.
...
In April 2006, Yahoo! Sports first revealed allegations that Bush and his family received extra benefits, including $54,000 in rent-free living at Michaels' $757,500 home in Spring Valley, Calif., according to Michaels and San Diego attorney Brian Watkins.
Yahoo! Sports also reported the Bush family received $28,000 from New Era financiers to settle pre-existing debt, according to Michaels and Watkins. Yahoo! Sports also reported that Bush received approximately $18,000 to purchase and upgrade a car while he was still a student at USC.
On Sept. 14, 2006, Yahoo! Sports published findings of an ongoing investigation that revealed that Bush and his family appeared to have accepted benefits worth more than $100,000 from two groups of marketing agents. The report came after Yahoo! Sports reviewed multiple travel records, documents and receipts. In addition to Lake and Michaels, extra benefits appear to have been supplied by Ornstein, Bush's current marketing agent.
NCAA by-law 12.3.1.2 states that an athlete shall be deemed ineligible if he or she accepts benefits from agents or marketing representatives. The rule further states that student-athletes, their family or friends cannot receive benefits or loans from agents. Additionally, NCAA by-law 12.1.2.1.6 states that athletes cannot receive preferential treatment, benefits or services because of the individual's athletics reputation or skill or pay-back potential as a professional athlete, unless such treatment, benefits or services are specifically permitted under NCAA legislation.
(Emphasis added above from the Yahoo Sports piece)
The NCAA and Pac10 have said the investigations are ongoing, but -- at least on the surface -- I'm becoming more convinced that there is simply too much smoke for this to just pass by.
I suspect we'll see Bush declared ineligible. The only question is - ineligible beginning when? If it's 2005, then USC would forfeit those games and Bush could be stripped of the Heisman. It's hard to say for sure, because there's not really a precedent to go by. If Bush is ruled ineligible in 2004, and it appears that his relationship with New Era did begin in 2004, then Southern Cal's national championship season may be in jeopardy.
Comments:
VTBobb said:
posted on January 25, 2007 11:36 AM — 208.229.147.26 — link — abuse?
Now, let's see how blind NCAA justice can be. I can name examples of other, lower profile schools having to forfeit games due to participation of ineligble players. (Temple in '86 comes to mind, my Hokies got a win out of that one).
On forfeiting the Heisman, I could be wrong, but I have the impression that the Heisman is not actually affiliated with the NCAA. If an ineligibility ruling came down, as long as it wasn't for cheating (such as performance enhancing drugs or academic ineligibility), my opinion is he should keep the Heisman. If the rule breaking didn't result in him having an unfair advantage over other players on the field, it probably shouldn't affect the Hesiman. Wasn't he still judged the best college football player of the year? Of course, as everyone will see below, I'm sure, that's open for debate.
Trickster said:
posted on January 25, 2007 12:49 PM — 68.17.160.88 — link — abuse?
This does remind me of the Alabama/Albert Means situation, just because the amount of money is so large that it plays kind of sensationally in the press.
That's basically the reason that Alabama got hammered so hard over that. The NCAA found in that case that the entire affair was a product of rogue boosters and a couple of rogue assistant coaches, and specifically stated that Alabama's institutional overview was a model for all schools and there was nothing else the Alabama AD could've done better than what they did do. Yet Alabama still got hammered, and I think it was because after all the stink and sensationalism about the amount of money that changed hands, the NCAA felt it couldn't just stand by and do nothing.
Hard to see USC getting off with a wrist-slap for this one, even if the school, AD, and football program were not involved in divvying out the bucks (which appears at this time to be the case). When a guy from a lower middle class family goes through $280,000 in a couple of years it's a tough sale to claim that none of his teammates or coaches noticed his lifestyle.
College Pigskin Fan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 1:12 PM — 63.19.102.229 — link — abuse?
I remember the April 23rd, 2006 and September 14th, 2006 stories about Reggie Bush and the USC home/cash/gift stories from Yahoo Sports. I remember a certain 24 hour sports cable network ignoring the story. I also remember how some people in sports talk radio, and on sports internet sites laughing it off since it was reported by Yahoo Sports. Who's laughing now?
gatorstud said:
posted on January 25, 2007 1:16 PM — 69.95.111.248 — link — abuse?
oh boy...all you usc'ers out there better be praying for good news about this...bush getting stripped of a heisman, usc getting stripped of a national title....
if this happens kevin, what kind of ncaa sanctions, if any, will come against usc...for pete carrolls sake...i hope he has nothing to do with it.....it is a shame that the university will be punished for the stupidity of an athlete....and his family....oh, how proud that family must be.....oh, man do i remember the mid 80's...and how dark it was for gatornation after the mess charlie pell and gallen hall had left us in.......good luck usc....you're gonna need it...
Gerald said:
posted on January 25, 2007 1:20 PM — 216.113.128.239 — link — abuse?
What I want to know is where is the "real media" on this one? Where is the LA Times? The Sporting News? ESPN? ABC? CNN? San Diego Times? It couldn't POSSIBLY be that these interests have a FINANCIAL INTEREST IN SOUTHERN CAL NOT GOING ON PROBATION and therefore have NO INTEREST IN THE STORY?
gatorhippy said:
posted on January 25, 2007 2:56 PM — 209.16.115.5 — link — abuse?
Well, this sucks for USC...
Inevitably the questions will be posed to Carroll and staff of how much knowledge they had of this...
If there was knowledge by any of the staff, Carroll or USC administrators expect some long reaching sanctions...
and you have to wonder if there were a few more guys in New Era's pocket as well...
posted on January 25, 2007 3:12 PM — 64.12.116.199 — link — abuse?War Eagle Atlanta said:
We sure would like to add the 2004 national title to our resume' if USC has to forfeit that season. Of course, Oklahama may want a claim of that too, since it would wipe their blow-out loss from the record. Regardless, we'll take the AP title and add it to the Cooter's Bait and Tackle National Championship we already received for that year!
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 4:51 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
Let me weigh in by saying that Reggie Bush is the worst thing that ever happened to USC football. Him and his parents got to be the stupidest, most self centered, idiots that have ever even lived. Think about it: how many ball players do you think have taken either loans or money of some kind under these circumstances? Thousands? None have failed to pay back the money or went on and hired the agents. They have all made good when they could. Not one has had to have the tapes handed over to a federal investigation. I applaud USC for disowning this greedy clown, who thought he was gonna smooth rip off, some people with some money. He'll be lucky if there isn't a bullet with his name on it somewhere. Obviously, the people that he got involved with are not playing.
Now, certainly USC is gonna have to forfeit every game in 2004 and 2005. I would hand the National Championship for 2004 to Auburn University. I would strip Reggie Bush of the Heisman and give it to Vince Young for 2005. I do not think for one minute that USC was involved in any of this crap. No way any program gets involved with these kinda agents. Nevertheless, USC will have to be stripped of everything that happened while this ineligible clown was on the football field. I don't think that USC should be punished for this greedy moron's stupidity. All he had to do was to pay them their money. He has sacrificed every endorsement or commercial that he could have ever received. His name is mud and USC will make sure of that. He will be stripped off the walls of "Heritage Hall". What a pathetically stupid thing to do. Like I said, there have been thousands of players take money (with thousands of tapes made), and none have failed to deliver on their promise - except this one particular A-Hole. I hope he completely washes out of the NFL and never makes another nickel. He is the lowest scum that has ever played college football - and that includes OJ Simpson (who at least pulled off his caper). Reggie Bush can kiss my azz!Tommie T
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 25, 2007 6:44 PM — 75.75.86.11 — link — abuse?
Don't you think that PC knows something that we don't. If so, why wouldn't he have just abandoned ship and gone to the NFL and lord knows he had the chances this offseason.
Again, there must be a reason that this isn't the lead story on ESPN, in the LA sports pages...
something is still wrong here, where there is smoke there is fire but I'm not 100% sure that someone is putting a little artificial smoke into the real fire
I'm still not sold on this but then again, I sure am looking at the entire Bush clan a lot differently now.
fsu.fan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 6:52 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?
I agree USC is PROBABLY not directly involved in this appalling scandal, BUT...
It's hard to believe they didnt conveniently just look the other way. Bush was given a new car while he was a student - how can no one notice a player driving to practice in a new car? Not to mention Bush and his family being given $280,000 in only two years - drastic life style changes had to be noticed.
Bush's records should be stripped from the record books along with his Heisman trophy. While accepting cars and money might not have affected his performance on the field - point is he shouldnt have been allowed to be on the field to start with.
As for the school. Like I said, it's hard to think the school didn't notice something. It's wishful thinking to say they were completely out of the loop for two years regarding these large amounts of money and gifts. Everything the school has done since 2004 should be completely stripped - as if they didnt even have a program. They should also lose scholarships in the future After all, it's the schools responsibility for what their players do - on or off the field. The school has to be held accountable - without accountability every school would "look the other way" regardless of what players did.
Overall, its extremely unfortunate for the fans of USC. They are a great group of fans and it's disappointing for them and college football fans everywhere this happened. I cant believe everyone on that campus was completely clueless and it's ashame no one stood up and did the right thing by kicking Bush off the team like OU did with Bomar.
It's ashame that because one player and the fact the school didnt take action because they were winning games, that now the great fans of USC lose.
posted on January 25, 2007 6:57 PM — link — abuse?
#18 Don't you think that PC knows something that we don't.
Umm...yeah. That's why Bush wasn't allowed a pass to the Rose Bowl.
Gatorpilot said:
posted on January 25, 2007 7:59 PM — 71.42.27.135 — link — abuse?
If he's guilty, USC should have to forfeit those games per the rules. By the description given, it sounds like an extreme violation worthy of extreme measures by the NCAA.
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 8:03 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
fsu.fan:
I agree somewhat. If Bush, or anyone else is showing up with excessive jewelry or cars or whatnot, any University ought to really be looking into that. But, maybe USC did. Maybe they could not uncover anything. Which brings me to TrojanHorse's point: maybe Pete Carroll and USC have covered their collective rearends on the matter of an internal investigation of this. Maybe it is well documented that they questioned these obvious "life style changes". Maybe they could not prove anything. The only way anything is gonna be proved, in the end game, is with those tapes that were provided to "the feds". Yahoo has been all over this for about a year and has not been able to uncover anything. The NCAA has also found nothing but a brick wall. Now finally, the agents themselves, are the ones who are gonna crack the case open. I am sure that USC was not involved in any way, shape or form. I'm sure that they are kicking themselves for letting that guy on the field with some obvious warning signs. I'm sure that he flat out lied to Pete Carroll and Mike Garrett also. That's why he will be barred from any USC activities forever.
No, USC will be okay - I'm sure that they are covered. But, Reggie Bush is a renegade scumbag, no matter what. He knowingly cheated, and continues to lie, while taking all others down with him. Dirtbag period. End of story. USC is taking a hit on recruiting this year already. Players are shying away. It will be the weakest class, in terms of numbers of recruits, in some time. That is because kids are afraid of probation. Pete Carroll is not going anywhere and nobody else has jumped ship, except for Lane Kiffen, who was already under some heat for his unimaginery play calling. Steve Sarkisian will do a much better job. It's too bad because we never really needed Reggie Bush to begin with. USC would have won the same way with LenDale White and Chauncey Washington or Whitney Lewis for that matter. I'm sure that Pete Carroll rues the day he ever recruited that punk.Tommie T
Gerald said:
posted on January 25, 2007 8:19 PM — 65.12.162.103 — link — abuse?
Chris:
I have my own "political biases" (though I am not the right wing conservative Republican that I once was), but point taken. Still, SOMEONE other than Yahoo ought to be running with this. I hate to keep hammering this point, but WE ALL KNOW THAT IF IT WAS AN SEC SCHOOL ...
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 9:21 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
Gerald:
What do you mean, "We all know that if it were an SEC school"? What's that imply? Come on dude - you're not that stupid. The SEC schools haul in more money than any other schools do. If USC is gonna get a break of any kind - it's gonna be because of the amount of revenue that they make for the NCAA. And, many of the SEC programs generate a wealth of revenue for the NCAA. Last I heard, they shot themselves in the foot, when they put Alabama on probation. Alabama hasn't recovered since. They don't "kill" programs anymore because of this. It's just not smart business. Gerald, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, "THE WORLD HAS CHANGED". It's no longer flat. Big business has taken over everything. Don't look for the NCAA to "kill" USC - it's not gonna happen. Some people over at Yahoo, who must hate USC, have been doggin' this story for about a year. The NCAA will do their best to make this one go away. It's not in anybody's best interest for this thing to linger. That's just the way it is, Gerald. BTW, as we speak, there are several players at the U of GA taking money from somebody right now. Hopefully, they have more brains than Reggie Bush and pay it all back with interest.
Tommie T
T-Mac said:
posted on January 25, 2007 9:31 PM — 66.78.139.117 — link — abuse?
Tommie, I agree with you 100% bro, but you say that USC would have won without Reggie Bush anyway. I don't agree with that one at all. I can recall 1 very important play that happened in the 2005 season. This is only 1 example and there are a myriad of them.
Exhibit-A (The Bush Push)!!!
USC/Notre Dame 2005
Reggie pushing Leinart into the endzone for the win.
Had Reggie not had the sense to push Leinart into the endzone than USC gets beat.
T-Mac said:
posted on January 25, 2007 9:36 PM — 66.78.139.117 — link — abuse?
Tommie, you are right on about Alabama being on probation. Look at where they have been the last 10 years. I truly hope this doesn't happen to USC. Antonio Langham was responsible for the initial probation back in 1997. I can't recall exactly what it was though. I hope it works out, but it doesn't look good. Reggie is a tremendous talent, but this is not smart. If he cared about USC why would he not make better decisions???
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 9:58 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
T-Mac:
If it would have been LenDale pushin' Leinart over the goalline - then it would have looked like Matt just plowed over them like Tim Tebow would have. I'm sure that it is part of the play. I doubt if this genius, Reggie Bush, thought that all up on his own. We can all see what his wonderful mentality has created. It doesn't look as if his mentality is too much superior to that of a "box of rocks". I think LenDale or one of the fullbacks would have pushed the pile anyway. Nevertheless, it doesn't even matter because all those games will have to be forfeited if he took money way back into 2004. So, that's why I say, "it would have been better if he never even showed up at USC". I won't say we would have definately won the National Championship, but there certainly would have been a very good team on the field, quite capable of winning one. You have got to give me that much. I think Matt Leinart was the main cog in the machine anyway.
Tommie Trojan
fsu.fan said:
posted on January 25, 2007 10:05 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?
Tommie T #22:
I can sort of understand where you're coming from. The coaches COULD have asked Bush about it. They MAY have tried to investigate and do the bare min to cover their asses. But to me there's just too much to over look. A $757,500 home to live in? Brand new car? On top of that $280,000 other cash/gifts given to bush and his family? It wouldnt take Sherlock Holmes to investigate that, certainly Pete Carrol is smart enough to figure it out.
What bothers me more is the fact that you're pretty dead on about USC not NEEDING Bush. Lets assume the university did get suspicious and actually couldnt find any evidence (though at the moment its hard to see how they couldnt). If you're Pete and you suspect Bush is cheating and doing something the program could suffer YEARS from, why keep him on the team? USC has plenty of talent to replace him with. White was a great back - could have started on any other team. They were LOADED. They did not NEED bush.
The school had to know or have a strong idea. I wont find it acceptable that they were completely in the dark. As for being able to PROVE it or not I dont know. To me they should have been suspicious enough with enough "circumstantial evidence" to kick him off the team regardless. They chose to ride out Bush's "glory" and all the bonuses that came with it - that's a choice they will have to live with.
The school cant just get off with a slap on the wrist, these are serious offences. Its ashame USC fans have to deal with this slap in the face due to an idiot player and a school with their eyes shut tight and their fingers crossed.
no fan of $C said:
posted on January 25, 2007 10:55 PM — 71.118.166.152 — link — abuse?
As long as cheating continues to be BIG buck$ and IF you get caught it doesn't hurt...the colleges and players will continue to cheat. Why have a NCAA bylaw on the record that states you don't get extra bennies for being able to catch a ball, if you aren't going to enforce it with real punishment for breaking it. U$C made big bucks -- there will never be a way to make it up to the school that should have played for the national championship game, or the players that should have gotten the awards. And yet there are people here saying SC didn't know! Give me a break! They saw what Reggie's home lifestyle was when they recruited him. Where did they think that new car came from? Ma & Pa Bush are at all the away games. Go from an apartment to a big fancy new house. And you are going to tell me, they and Reggie never ever said one word about where all this came from? As long as Reggie was scoring touchdowns Carroll and the rest of SC looked the other way. Why didn't Carroll take the pro job (which by the way hadn't been offered to him) -- cause he is just as arrogant as Bush and believes cheaters do prosper and will continue to do so as long as they wear cardinal and gold. Well, it's time to either say the colleges and players can do whatever the H they please OR enforce the punishment for breaking them regardless which college is at fault.
Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 25, 2007 10:55 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Is this still hanging around ???
Lets get this over with already...The USC program/administration is not alleged to be involved, the USC Coaching Staff is not alleged to be involved, USC Boosters are not alleged to be involved.
This has to do with some scuz-bag A-g-e-n-t tring to lure the family/USC Player AWAY FROM USC!... A-W-A-Y from USC (Fuck the NFL/Marketing machine). This isnt about a Booster giving a player Money, or a phoney job/salary to COMMIT to a school. Keep things in perspective 'Haters', calm yourselves.
The PAC-10 and the NCAA should be Helping USC (and every other Program) to root-out these snakes, implement a mechanism that works WITH SCHOOLS to alert them of such things.
Reggie's step-dad and mom are fugken Scoundrels (the Griffin family) for even getting involved with this scum, Reggie himself is a dickhead for allowing it (allegedly) - putting USC at risk.As far as punishment to be used as a deterrent...
... Anything 'retro active' is pretty meainingless, so if Reggie Bush's stats are pasted-over in the record books, its worthless either way.
... Resticting scholarships would get the school's attention, and it might be effective in making them more vigilant in the future, but it also punishes the wrong party, arguably (same for resticting future Bowl game participation).
... Having future Players & Parents of players undergo closer scrutiny/placed on quasi-surveillance would be a worthwhile inconvenience (and fair, if its done across-the-board).Unbiased Observer said:
posted on January 25, 2007 10:55 PM — 76.168.158.172 — link — abuse?
Let's not forget that the accuser has served time in prison and is currently being investigated for EXTORTION.
As for Fanblogs' assertion that there's "too much smoke," I'd just like to add that there was a lot of smoke around the Duke lacrosse team, too. Turns out that case had it all, except for a simple detail called evidence. Despite what many fans here and elsewhere are falling all over themselves to believe, we have seen no evidence of wrongdoing, just accusations.
You have to admire the schadenfreude of fans practically dancing with glee over these accusations, while conveniently forgetting a legal nuance called "innocent until proven guilty."
posted on January 25, 2007 11:06 PM — link — abuse?
Yes, Pete Carroll hasn't left USC. Why should he? He's making a fortune, and --as of yet-- there aren't any sanctions against the Trojans. Even if USC has to give up scholarships or some slap on the wrist, the cupboard is STOCKED.
posted on January 25, 2007 11:11 PM — link — abuse?
Clipper Nation - There's no question that the AFCA would pull the BCS trophy if it ever came to USC forfeiting games. I can't say with certainty that the AP would do the same - maybe yes, maybe no.
Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 25, 2007 11:37 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Unbiased Obs,
That Duke case, I get the meaning of the "smoke" reference, but thats on a whole different level.
That those kind of potential False Accusations -- that kinda sh!t is fugken Criminal. Its one of the few things that truly pisses me off. Also, the plaintiff's attorney might have Obstructed Justice by withholding info, etc - thats another truely heinous act.
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 12:01 AM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
fsu.fan:
First off - the Griffen's had a real decent income prior to Reggie being recruited by USC. They lived in the upper middle class suburbs of San Diego, California. These were not poor people. A $750,000 dollar house in So Cal is just slightly over average these days. A $500,000 dollar house in the inner city is a "dump". That is not "earthshaking" or any evidence at all based on what these people's incomes already were. They could have gotten a house like that. They're giving them away.
Second, without any evidence of wrongdoing, you can't just pull a kid's scholarship. I know that Steve Spurrier has done it, but it's not generally regarded as an ethical standard. It just doesn't happen. The guy may not have shown up at school being escorted about in a limosine. He may not have been wearing any gold. His family was fairly well to do. I think they were just greedy and wanted to start spending money that they didn't have yet. $280,000 doesn't get you too much these days. They might have spent that all on trips and casino's for all we know. What is amazing to me, is that with the mega contract that Bush signed, why didn't he pay the money back? It's chump change to him now. None of this could have been easily solved by either the University or the NCAA. How do you prove where the money came from - even if you can establish that there is extra money? What if they kept the cash in a suitcase in their home? Who could prove they ever even had it? The Yahoo folks did uncover that they were living in a home that was paid for by "sports agents" though. That's when the whole deal started to unravel. In fact, the stupid Griffen's, evacuated the premises on the following day of the Yahoo reporter's inquiries. Now, if that didn't throw some suspicion their way, I don't know what would have. Fugken morons is what they are. Man, these people aren't even decent scammers. Anyone could figure out how to get their rent payed "under the table". Ask any welfare recipient how to "run it all down".
Now, Pete Carroll could have sat his azz on the bench. I noticed that a couple of players didn't play this year, that I was highly skeptical of. I noticed that Whitney Lewis never took a snap and had to transfer. He was the nation's #2 recruit a few years back. Did he forget how to play football? Maybe Pete saw something he didn't like there? I don't know. It's not about the Heisman either. USC could have simply pushed for Matt Leinart to get another one rather than pushing for Bush. I think that Bush probably looked "clean" to USC if they had investigated him. And, I think that they did.Tommie T
SL said:
posted on January 26, 2007 12:08 AM — 71.226.73.73 — link — abuse?
Tommie T,
USC always gets a slap on the wrist, what about the incident involving Matt Leinart and DJ's apartment renting fiasco? Without Bush USC would have nothing and you know it. Don't blame USC's problems on one player, you have to look at the program as a whole and PC knows about these infractions. So blast Bush but also blast DJ, Leinart, Carroll, and the countless athletes allowed to play for USC that have criminal records for beating their girlfriends or sexual assualt.
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 26, 2007 5:47 AM — 75.75.86.11 — link — abuse?
Kevin (re:#35) I do see where you are going with this; however still I think (pure speculation here) that if SC was in serious trouble(as opposed to scholly loss or similar) that PC would have bolted to the NFL (Fins maybe) faster than a used car salesman after the dotted line is signed. He's making a ton ($2.78M reported) but that is chump change in this business esp when you include the NFL. The job security would not be there if there were major infractions; I think Mike garrett would roll him under a bus in a heartbeat if it was found that there was institutional level lack of control. I know that there are not any sanctions; I may be way off base here but I think that there won't be any or if so, they will be minor other wise we'd be looking for a new coach. What I don't understand is that the Assistant in question is still there too. Todd McNair RB coach. If this is true, dontcha think he'd have been canned by now too?
Again, no one else is putting the same spin as Yahoo. maybe they do know something that the rest of the major networks and pubs don't know but then again I doubt it too
fsu.fan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 6:25 AM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?
Well Tommie T #37. I cant agree the Bush family was upper middle class or able to afford even a $500,000 house in cali.
"Yahoo! Sports also reported the Bush family received $28,000 from New Era financiers to settle pre-existing debt, according to Michaels and Watkins."
Does not sound like a fincially sound family in upper middle class to me. However, you're right about the fact they MAY not have been flashing the gifts and money around. Maybe the did blow it all in Vegas. Who know. Seeing how STUPID their ENTIRE FAMILY has been through this - its tough to think they didnt flaunt it.
Best of luck going forward to USC.
Cane_Nation said:
posted on January 26, 2007 8:10 AM — 205.166.218.4 — link — abuse?
Gerald (Post 9) & TrojanHorse (Post 18)
The reason the media hasn't made this the lead story is because during the time that Bush played at USC, they were ESPN's sweethearts. ESPN loves USC and Pete Carroll. If this was a school from the south (not neccessarily the SEC), ESPN would be ready to crucify them. Let this be Miami, Auburn, or even FSU lately. They would be pulling for the complete shut down of the program, Carroll would be a cheat, and the program would be out of control.
As far as losing scholarships, just take your medicine and go to bed for a few years. We did it and within 3 yrs. coming off we were back on top. USC is NOT Alabama, you CAN survive probation.
I do like seeing the posterboys for all that is good with college football with egg on their face though. No disrespect to the USC fans on here, though. You really seem pretty down to Earth and see what really goes on.
GO CANES '07!!!!!!!!!!!
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 8:50 AM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
Some of you people are just plain stupid. A $28,000 debt in credit card bills in California is nothing. There are hundreds of thousands of Bancrupcies filed each year here on credit card debt. The Bush's lived in California. Who said they couldn't afford to live in California? Hell, I can't afford to live in California. How does anyone live in Hawaii or New York?
Furthermore, all you azzholes from the south must understand, your players are the poorest of all and are taking more money than any others. I've explained this before: the NCAA knows that all these players take money. What are they gonna do - put every school on probation? How can any University stop a kid from taking dough? The infractions are when school boosters are giving the money. In this case - that's not what has happened. The player is ineligible and all games that he participated in will be lost. Other than that - the school is not responsible for this idiots behaviour. And, remember this, every school in the south has the same problems. This is just a case where Yahoo decided to go after Reggie Bush. If they wanted to look into Tim Tebow or Percy Harvin - I'm sure that they could find something. You don't think Darren McFadden is scrapin' off some extra cheese? Come on - give me a break. You crackers can't be that pathetically stupid - can you?Tommie T
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 26, 2007 9:15 AM — 132.228.195.207 — link — abuse?
To live in a 750K house in So Cal is nothing but pure middle class. Had that been brought up at the start it would never have raised a red flag for me even if they just moved in and here is why. Both parents had blue collar jobs but probably ones that paid them a decent salary. If they had ownership of a prior house, and sold it for a huge profit (very possible with the recent real estate boom of the last five years prior to their moving in) it would not be far fetched at all. 750K homes are Middle class in So Cal believe it or not. Most people who own homes worth this amount are not paying mortgages on this amount though, either their home has tripled in value or they cashed out of one that did and put a huge down payment on the 750K home. I'm only saying this b/c even if this was known up front as to the type of house that they lived it, it would not have raised any red flags, a 750K home is not a huge adjustment in ones standard of living in So Cal. It might be in alabama but not in San diego county.
Dont get me wrong, I think something is not right here too.. I think All the Bushes are scumbags IF this is proven to be true.. However I'm willing to see if there is any REAL evidence that this is true. Remember Lloyd Lake and his cronies are not exactly people on the up and up. If I'm correct, Lloyd Lake is a convicted Felon. LL is also according to a federal investigation trying to extort money from Reggie and his family. So I'm not going to rush to judgement on what a convicted felon says especially when it may be in the process of committing another felony.
gatorstud said:
posted on January 26, 2007 9:31 AM — 69.95.111.248 — link — abuse?
i have to agree w/ cane nation #43...we see it all the time on espn and all their sister stations and programs...athletes getting into trouble...and espn puts the story, along w/ a picture on the front page everytime.....they go into deep analysis on how they know whats going on because of their resources....right now they are ripping into the cincy bengals for their woes....they had no trouble reporting on the problems of fsu, or miami, or tennessee, or alabama.....they were all over the duke lacrosse athletes....remember kobe bryant and how deep espn dug into that one.....so it does beg the question why they are not running with this story...it has to have some kind of merit.....
and i also have to agree w/ tommie trojan....it is hard to imagine that this does not happen a lot....athletes will always take some kind of financial help throughout their college stay......yeah it is easy to say that athletes should take money, or do anything that would hurt the university, but, cmon.....all of you (that are old enough) can remember when you were at college how much easier it would of been with a little extra money....athletes are no different....remember...these are just kids...money is a powerful weapon in the eyes of our youth.....
he should of payed off his debt like a man so he wouldn't drag USC down.....that is what it comes down to......he basically said..i'm not paying you back...and i don't care what you do cause i am in the NFL ...and, now USC and all their fans are getting left behind to clean up the mess.....it is truly sad if this all comes to be true....truly sad.....
and like i said before....i remeber the mid 80's....it still hurts...
and alabama fans , michigan fans....it is a shitty deal...
i really hope that USC can come out off this unscaved, but it is going to be tough.....to all trojan fans out there.....i truly wish you all good luck.....Gerald said:
posted on January 26, 2007 10:00 AM — 216.113.128.239 — link — abuse?
Tommie Trojan:
How did your racial slur get past the moderators? In any event, I am not a "cracker" (your term, not mine), but rather a shade or three darker :-). Calm down, fella. Look, SEC folks know that their players likely cheat too. It isn't a matter of who cheats, but who is so dumb and arrogant that they get caught. And yes, we know the difference between when it is someone affiliated with the university (i.e. a coach or booster) and someone who is not. But here are the facts: the media has done its best to create a perception that the SEC is the conference of cheaters. You have the New York Times doing their level best to dig up dirt on that Auburn 2004 team that didn't get SQUAT, trying to claim that players who ACTUALLY GRADUATED were given grades, all based on the allegations of ONE PERSON who has ADMITTED NOT KNOWING FOR SURE IF THE ALLEGATIONS ARE TRUE, only that "it looks suspicious" and "there ought to be an investigation". The New York Times has run several articles on this "story" already, and in order to cover up for their lack of evidence of wrongdoing, in each one they bring up the scandals of SEC past with the narrative of the big white virtually segregated southern university exploiting the poor black athlete. Now Auburn did a THOROUGH INVESTIGATION and FOUND NO WRONGDOING ON THE PART OF THE ATHLETICS DEPARTMENT. What was going on was this ONE BAD PROFESSOR who was giving out easy As. And guess what ... HE WASN'T JUST GIVING THEM OUT TO ATHLETES! HE WAS GIVING THEM OUT TO EVERYONE! And even after Auburn was cleared, the New York Times continued to run stories, at least two, all of them with the byline: "several Auburn football players WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THEIR 13 - 0 SEASON MAY HAVE RECEIVED CREDIT FOR DOING LITTLE OR NO WORK DURING THE SEASON." Now, were I an Auburn fan, I would be thinking that THE MEDIA was doing their level best to discredit Auburn's season and their claim that they were robbed by the BCS and the MEDIA POLLSTERS. Just like it seemed that the MEDIA was doing their best to discredit LSU in 2003 and Florida this past year. And yes, the New York Times' sham story was picked up by ALL the newspapers. So the question, my good man, is if the New York Times was able to be so dogged in pursuit of a STORY ON THE BASIS OF A SINGLE ALLEGATION FROM A SINGLE PERSON WHO ADMITTED TO NOT EVEN KNOWING THAT IT WAS TRUE BUT RATHER IT WAS "SUSPICIOUS" AND CONTINUE REPORTING ON THE STORY EVEN AFTER AUBURN AND THE PLAYERS WERE EXONERATED, why on earth are they unable to do the same with this Reggie Bush story? It isn't because they aren't able to, it is because they don't want to, and the reason why they don't want to seems to me - and to other SEC fans - to be the same reason as always.
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/auburn_university/index.html
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 12:01 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
Gerald:
I personally assume, that the most ignorant of species in the south, are the hillbillies (of which I am a descendant). Most others would have the world pretty much figured out. Now, I don't think that many of the Top Rated programs have to go out of their way to cheat. I don't think that they have to do that. In fact, I think they have way more to lose by doing so. There are so many good players to go around, that one or two here and there, isn't gonna make that much difference. I have never thought of the SEC as a conference that inherently cheats. They just have a ton of great players in the south. They don't have to do that. It would be the mid-level programs that might want to cheat in order to land some of that bigger bowl money. All the BCS schools get their cut anyway. I notice that LSU and Florida amongst others are making big hauls in recruiting this year. Does it mean that they're cheating? No! It means that Florida and Louisiana are chalked full of players this year.
Now, as for the media. Their job has always been to dig up dirt. They could try and do it wherever they please. They love to knock the top dogs off their perch. That's where the story is. There isn't any story in uncovering a scandel at Rice. But, if they could nail Auburn or USC, or any of the other top programs - that is where they'll always look first. So, don't be alarmed that they go after SEC schools. Those are great programs. They'll be after Urban Meyer shortly - bank on it. And, they'll probably uncover some stupid kid that did something wrong. The NCAA doesn't care anymore. It's all about the green stuff and everybody understands that it is these kids makin' it for them. So, the NCAA isn't gonna condone it - but they are not gonna "kill" programs when it happens anymore. They'll only do that when a program is actively involved in getting these kids the cash. They can't stop agents from getting to these kids. I think that every major school does their best - but it's like trying to hold back the dam with your thumb. Eventually, the dam is gonna burst. I can name you about six or seven highly rated recruits that never saw the field here at USC. Why would that be? Probably because the coaching staff thought that they might be "dirty". They're not gonna put people on the field that are gonna cause any problems. Reggie Bush must have slipped it all right on by them. It sure looks embarrassing now, and I'm sure that in hindsight, USC wishes that they had done something different. Anyway, Reggie Bush is the problem, not USC.Tommie T
IrishJT said:
posted on January 26, 2007 12:19 PM — 65.83.54.4 — link — abuse?
i can't wait until USC has to forfeit the season. Notre Dame will then rightfully get the "W" that it deserved in '05!! Charlie was right...9-3 was NOT good enough.
I do feel bad for SC fans though. It could have, and does, happened anywhere.
VTBobb said:
posted on January 26, 2007 12:46 PM — 208.229.147.26 — link — abuse?
I posted this last fall, and it still applies. Even if USC “didn’t know”, they should have and therefore have a significant “LACK OF INSTUTUTIONAL CONTROL”. The whole point of requiring institutional control is to prevent colleges from pleading ignorant and allowing boosters to buy teams for them.
Being a Hokie fan for 20 years, I’ve had a unique opportunity that many of you haven’t. I’ve watched “my team” build from a perennial also-ran to being a consistent winning program, and even competing with the elite programs in college football (although they haven’t quite reached the pinnacle yet, can’t seem to close out a season). While I don’t agree with some of the NCAA rules, I believe that the primary focus is to try to keep the playing field level. Without them, VT never would have had an opportunity to build their success.
If these allegations are proven to be true, there is no legitimate excuse to let USC off the hook. If they didn’t know, they didn’t want to know and my understanding of the rules means they had no institutional control. Hence, they should be harshly punished. Otherwise, the NCAA is just asking for us to return to the days of the big bucks buying the championships.
And another point. All of the USC fans talking about their "stocked cuoboard" - don't you think seeing Bush drive around in a swanky new car, hearing about his folks "low income housing" swayed more than a few recruits into going to USC?
T-Mac said:
posted on January 26, 2007 2:01 PM — 66.78.139.117 — link — abuse?
So Cal, I mean Clipper Nation. Sorry about that. This isn't just gonna go away. That is a lot of money and these are serious allegations. I'm not hatin on USC at all. I hope sanctions aren't imposed. It's a shame that 1 player can bring down the ship, but it happens. Look at Alabama!
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 2:02 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
IrishJT:
I notice that it never happens at Notre Dame though. Read into that what you like. But, I can't remeber even one instance of any wrongdoing at Notre Dame. Now, that's either because everybody who ever went to school there is perfect, or nobody ever goes after Notre Dame. I will assume that Notre Dame does try to conduct itself above board - and the NCAA has never found a reason to be suspicious. But, Notre Dame has been fortunate to escape these kind of scandels.
Tommie T
gatorstud said:
posted on January 26, 2007 2:45 PM — 69.95.111.248 — link — abuse?
you are right tommie t......i live 20 minutes east of south bend and i can honestly say that it is very rare to hear anything bad about their athletes. now NOTRE DAME did have a scandall about six or seven years ago about a booster who took money and there was a football player attached to that scandall, but i believe that it really had nothing to do with the athletic progam, and the evidence prooved that....so, yes the irish program is clean...
hey irishjt, taking my kids to the irish hockey game on saturday against miami......hope to have a good time.....but, make no mistake about it.....i will be sporting orange and blue....my daughter is an irish fan (soccer)..i have taken her to several soccer games and i have to say that domer fans are some of the nicest people to be around....kudos to your fans
clemson1981 said:
posted on January 26, 2007 4:12 PM — 72.155.183.249 — link — abuse?
tommie t:
agreed, i think its simple for ND and keeping there players under control, aparently they use a no stike your out thing i bet. screw up once your gone, im sure its like that. but this is sad for USC but to me im taking mike wilbons view on this, it happened hes not playing htere anymore, and if this did happen lets get over it, slap em with a violation and move on NCAA im tired of the NCAA draggin these "investigations" on happens to often, hurry it up so we can worry about football again.TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 26, 2007 4:56 PM — 208.54.95.129 — link — abuse?
For those who questions Reggies car; It was a 1996 Impala I believe, I know that I have the year right, the Impala part I may be wrong on.. so even in 2004/5, that is NOT by any means a new car, the thing was 9 or 10 years old when he got it.. I don't recall if he showed up in it in 04 or 05
TampaGator said:
posted on January 26, 2007 4:58 PM — 152.163.100.196 — link — abuse?
Tommie T:
I agree with you that USC would've been fine without Bush; I argued that repeatedly in '05 (re. him not deserving H-man). Take him out, and the Trojans barely skip a beat. Take V.Young out of Texas, and they wouldn't have been very good at all--at least not BCS good.
As for NCAA taking action against USC--nothing I've seen or heard (YET) suggests the requisite nexus between the institution and the agents (perhaps one could infer guilty knowledge, but that's mere conjecture at this point).
I don't know the details of the case, but I believe that one of the primary reasons no action was taken against OSU based on Maurice Claurett's involvement with agents was that same lack of nexus.
Also, I think your observation about PC not high-tailing it out of town is very telling. Like Historically--like animals before a storm--you can almost tell when the hammer is going to drop, because the coaches start running for cover!
Good luck next year.
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 4:59 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
VTBobb:
I don't think that whatever Bush was doing was any more influential than whatever some of the VT players are driving. You don't think there are some future all-pro players at Hokieland right now? You don't think that there takin' any bling do ya'? Of coarse not. That only happens at the USC's of the land. How do you think that you got your great recruits? How do you think anybody gets these recruits? Why do you think it takes so long for many of the more highly rated prospects to make up their minds? It's because they're all looking for the best possible deal. Hell, if you were lookin' for a basic education - wouldn't they all be enrolling in the Ivy League schools? No, they're not interested in that. They're looking for the best deal where they can "get over" the easiest. Don't think that VT doesn't have some of the same things goin' on. And, I think Frank Beamer is a great coach (honest as the day is long), but it's not gonna stop some bad apple from taking money.
Tommie T
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 5:05 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
So, weakside LB Malcolm Smith (brother of WR Steve Smith), just commited to the Trojans. I'm sure that his brother knows a whole bunch that none of us will ever know about - being that Steve played with Reggie for four years. It doesn't look as if Malcolm is too worried about much. Or, maybe the Trojans just handed him a suitcase full of dough and the keys to a brand new ferrari.
Tommie T
fsu.fan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 6:35 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?
This is all pretty simple. The university is solely responcible for the integrity of the athletics programs and the school as a whole. If there's a recruit a school is suspicious of - dont sign them. If there's a player on the team thats suspicious - kick them off. It's not unethical. What Bush did is unethical. Protecting the integrity of the program has to come first.
This as been mentioned in this post before, this isn't SC's first "instance." Living arrangements with Matt and Jerret have come up, sexual assult and other criminal instances have also come up. I'm not saying USC is a dirty program by any means, I'm aware some of these things go on at many schools. Ultimately, it's PC's job to protect the integrity of the program. I only would like to see a stronger job of that done. Letting a few potential recruits walk is peanuts for USC.
PC needs to adopt a ZERO tolerance policy. Kick ass and take names PC, keep it clean and keep the program strong.
Good luck to USC
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 26, 2007 9:04 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
fsu.fan:
Eric Wright was caught doing drugs two years ago and was promply dismissed. Who's Eric Wright? The best cover corner SC had as a freshman. Transferred to UNLV and is entering the draft now after two years of college ball. Is projected to be the best "lockdown corner" and a future all-pro player in this draft. That was one hell of a player that was let go like now. But, that is the only guy who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Leinart's dad paid for his pad. Something wrong with that? Jarrett just kinda flopped there. So what! Everybody's got to be somewhere. The claim was that Jarrett needed to pay half the rent. Why should he - Matt wasn't. If pops wants to spring for the crib - what the hell is the matter with that? Who would care if the whole team lived there? No come on. You don't think there is any other fathers who are footin' some of these bills? And, like their pals aren't stayin' there too? Give me a break! The real deal is is that there is nothin' but Trojan haters in the media. They're gonna dig for dirt until hell freezes over. Man, the stories I could tell you about what the Fresno State basketball program was goin' through while they were all tryin' to dig up dirt on Tark. Tarkanian fugked em' all by just steppin' down. He did that to save his players and the University from all of these moronic reporters and the NCAA. You can get dirt on anyone. Try runnin' for politics sometime. No matter what great and noble deeds you intend to improvise once you get into office, so dreams will soon be dashed, as some other politition is gonna show you the proof that is gonna ruin your career. So, your forced into "playing ball". Doesn't anybody understand the name of the game? I think that the Rose Bowl situation, and all the money that the Pac-10 is making off that Bowl, have a whole lot to do with some of the crap goin' on. Somebody is not playing ball here.
Tommie T
T-Mac said:
posted on January 26, 2007 9:59 PM — 66.78.139.117 — link — abuse?
Tommie, post 61. Very true. Everybody has skeletons in their closet. Tommie, sometimes I listen to MC Hammer when I'm straight rollin. I've even been known to slide the ole trusty Vanilla Ice cd in from time to time. Get Down!!!
VOLPIMP said:
posted on January 26, 2007 10:54 PM — 208.0.27.10 — link — abuse?
The Trojan guys are right, don't you guys ever watch Flip This House? A 1 bedroom 1 bath piece of sh*t sold for 250,000 on the show, before repairs in Cali. That shows you the cost of living there, it wasn't even a nice neighborhood. That being said nobody can throw stones at USC over benefits anyway, like someone else said, everybody is doing it.
PopsMich said:
posted on January 27, 2007 6:45 AM — 71.77.24.80 — link — abuse?
Reggie Bush = Chris Webber...and that is a BIG problem for USC.
From Fab 4 fame to the most hated UM player is where that story goes, and so it will with Reggie Bush at USC. Stories are the same, being taking $$$ (University had no hand in it).
Michigan VOLUNTARILY stripped the banners and title and Webber's records (yep, they don't exist - there are no official basketball stats of him at UM).
NCAA sanctions then banned UM from the Tournament for 2 years and removed (some) scholarships for several years. I think the program is just now (finally) at full scholarships to recruit.
As you know, there hasn't been much about Michigan Basketball in recent years. You also likely know the history is of a perrenial, top notch Basketball contender - just like USC football.
Tommie - you got it right: USC may be in BIG TROUBLE on this one.
C. R. said:
posted on January 27, 2007 12:08 PM — 70.143.47.138 — link — abuse?
Anyone who says a middle class family can pay for a $750k house is full of it. Payments on that would likely be at least $4000 a month. So his parents woould have to make $5k a month before taxes just to pay for the house. Then you add ins(property and auto)taxes/tags,utlities,food,car payments and your looking at a monthly income of about $7-8k before taxes. Middle class my A$$.I don't care if it's Cal or not the math and money is the same everything just costs more.
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 27, 2007 3:02 PM — 208.54.15.1 — link — abuse?
CR your math is way off base.. first of all lets take your 8K Gross (before tax) that turns out to be 96K per annum (12*8K) which is middle class work in So Cal. However just b/c you live in a 750K house doesn't mean your mort. balance is that high, for most its half of that amount b/c of the run up on the house you sold (and the profit you made on that prior house) was the down payment on the 750K house. With the 500K exclusion from Cap Gains, each dollar for dollar can go into a down payment for the new house... its really not that hard to do.. I'm not saying the bush's did this but for a typical middle class so cal family this is how its done
Vol Pimp: i watched that show where that was the One BR house in Pasadena where the chick flipped it in about 8 weeks... after a ton of renovation work
RUKiddinMe said:
posted on January 27, 2007 4:17 PM — 68.98.192.157 — link — abuse?
Post 59-Yea, he knows its USC and they will get a slap on the wrist for this blunder that "they couldent have known anything about"! This isnt about every other team in the nation, it is about USC! Drive the getaway car in a bank robbery and tell the cops u had no idea they were robbing the bank! U can tell the real story to us from Jail! Why didnt Reggie get tickets to the rose bowl? Tommie, some of these posts make u sound like a spoiled little brat! "Everyone else did it" Its OK, its USC, nothing will happen! If this situation is as rampid as u claim, maby the NCAA should start here with USC and crack down! Crush them, and set an example for the rest of CF!
posted on January 27, 2007 6:27 PM — 70.180.38.96 — link — abuse?
TrojanHorse...750K is a "pure middle class" home? I've got a few clients over in the Mill Valley, CA, area that feel as if their 650K townhome is quite upper class...
I don't think a guy who owns 4 companies & about 17 pieces of Southern Cali Real Estate would agree with your assessment of home values in the California area.
I agree that they're inflated, but you're treading on a subject I know a pretty good bit about...You're reaching...750K puts them squarely in the upper echelon of home values in the state, and for a family with a college aged kid, that's upper class all the way, buddy...
no fan of $C said:
posted on January 27, 2007 8:59 PM — 71.118.166.152 — link — abuse?
Wow I love reading comments about California real estate from people who do NOT even live in the state. (1) I live in Southern California and (2) I am a licensed Realtor. Yes, RE prices in California are high. BUT please let's not say $750,000 is the norm for someone working a low end blue collar job. Also if you would get your facts straight. Reggie's parents did not own a home. Either right before or during this "scandal". They were living in an apartment and were having "housing problems" according to a statement from Griffin. They had promised to pay $4,500 in rent -- and then never paid any rent at all for this new home. Eviction was underway and they got the heck out right after the news broke.
The latest article in the LA TIMES has Reggie and LaMar approaching the sports agents. Not the other way round. The reason Bush wanted to start his own agency so he would not have to paid anything to an agent. There's talk of involvment of other USC players.
And I'll say it for the last time. You either have a rule that is enforced with punishment for anyone breaking it severe enough so it hurts or your FORGET the rules and let all schools and players do whatever the H they please whenever and however. And unfortunately for colleges and coaches that just want to look the other way as long as it's a "star" player; they can't and shouldn't.
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 28, 2007 10:10 AM — 75.75.86.11 — link — abuse?
68 and 69; Isn't the median price of a home in So cal (pick SD/OC/LA counties) in the BALLPARK of $500K.. right there thats the median, half over, half under.. My point was that this house is not upper class.. a 750K home is no where close to upper class.. or rich.. a $1M home in SD is not Rich.. yeah its upper middle class but not rich.. A person/family could have a 750K home on 100K Gross income. As long as they put a good down payment on the home usually by selling a previous home.. I know the bushes didn't have a home (owned) before.. but the point (from a University perspective) was that they were not living extravagently, that it was not unreasonable to think that they could live in this home.. This was not a house on the strand in Manhattan Beach, it was not a Hollywood hills mansion, it was not a San Marino mansion, nor was it a on top of the cliffs of PV... They (Bushes) did not start throwing money around (from the best of my knowledge through articles) to say hey wait a minute something fishy is going on here.. Unless you had an inside scoop, you would not know that they were on the take... Now I think Lamar worked in the SD school system and didn't the mother as well.. I would assume (I know I shouldn't do that) that if that is true, they both probably grossed at least 100K.. just speculation.. but enough to justify a middle class lifestyle. Again the point here being, there were not any flags at the time.. yes there are all kinds now, and I'm Pissed about it.. but looking back based on the info out in the press now, I don't see how SC was supposed to know
darryn said:
posted on January 28, 2007 2:52 PM — 68.104.94.204 — link — abuse?
Geez, It's the Duke rape case all over. I remember when the Duke case broke " Guilty as charged ". Now an alleged tape. " Guilty as charged ". I really don't care what the outcome of this is, but what It reminds me of is why I trust very few people in life and rightfully so.
This is more of a reflection on the people I'm surrounded by in society who are so sure of what happened based on " allegations " and "alleged "
than waiting for all the facts to come out. Maybe Usc is guilty of all that has been reported, but I also recall that same reaction with the Duke case. We all now know where that case stands. As one comment pointed out " where's the national media ", well maybe with the Duke case the media has learned something. Wait until all the facts and both sides present thier side before we whip out the great American knee jerk reaction and offer up once again the " guilty as charged ". How pathetic Americans can be. Nazi Germany would of been proud.fsu.fan said:
posted on January 28, 2007 3:36 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?
People seem to be missing the point. It doesnt matter if the house is "rich" or "upper middle class" or plain "middle class." The point is, IF the bush family made 100k salary together, the mortgage payments on the house would be several thousand dollars a month (especially since the bush family sell a house to make a down payment on the house).
That mean an extra 5k a month in your pocket from not having to pay rent, plus the 28k in debt the family was in was paid for them so they didnt have to pay that off. Reggie was given a new car, went to school for free with his scholarship. Then, on top of all THAT they were given 280K over two years in cash and gifts.
So the family makes 100K a year with their jobs, plus they were given an extra 140K a year in gifts and cash (so they received over DOUBLE their yearly income) BUT they saved 5k in rent on top of that, plus got a free car. With all this extra money they had - HOW COULD ANYONE NOT NOTICE!?
This crap about it's cali and its more expensive is just that - crap. It would be noticeable if someone's yearly income was over doubled and on top of that didnt have to pay major bills. Regardless of where you live - thats NOTICEABLE.
People say, well maybe they didnt flaunt it. Maybe they blew it all in casinos, maybe they just saved it, blah blah. Lets get real, this isnt the smartest family in the world at all - infact, they're idiots. After all, this is the family that moved out THE NEXT DAY after only being asked about it - how stupid is that? On top of that they were too stupid to just pay the people back once reggie was in the NFL - as if they couldnt afford it. The chances they didnt flaunt it or make it noticeable is very slim - at best.
Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 28, 2007 7:32 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Why the talk about Home Prices ??? Whats the dedate about? I missed it, but here's this from http://www.fanblogs.com/ncaa/006723.php
San Diego State (San Diego, CA) - $642,250 (average home price)
USC (Los Angeles, CA) - $1,565,099 (average home price)Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 28, 2007 7:58 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Los Angeles Times (Jan. 27th) lays it out...
I dont know which Giffin Family is worse - the one in "The Family Guy" is Horrible (unwatchably annoying). But Reggie's family are bunch of !@#*$, if the L.A. Times is reporting accurately (New Era partner). Reggie's step-Dad approached this guy Lloyd Lake. If thats whats proven, then that Muthfugker should be Strung-Up (figuratively).
Still, USC is not alleged to be involved in any of it. One of the attorneys going after the Griffin Family said that he had found "no information or indication that USC had actual knowledge of any of this."
Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 28, 2007 8:20 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
TMac (post 52),
This is new information to me, what I read in this Saturday's L.A. Times article... its alleged that Reggie & LaMar Griffin (Reggie's Step-Dad) were the ones who proposed the formation of this agency to these "agents", Lake and Micheals. So it may not have been the "scuz-bags Agents trying to lure Reggie away from USC" like I thought... it may be that Reggie/Griffin were just THAT Greedy, that they would put the USC Program at risk.
... and Im still saying "it may be" and "allegedly" because it hasnt All played out yet, but I doNT doubt that Reggie and/or Griffin put USC at jeopardy, those muthfugkers (I never found Reggie all that endearing, maybe my spidey-senses knew something I didnt, ... "maybe")
Clipper NATION said:
posted on January 28, 2007 8:29 PM — 204.62.68.23 — link — abuse?
Darryn, DONT compare this to the Duke Lacrosse situation.
That case is NOT about SPORTS. You trivialize the issue of Rape and/or False Allegations of Rape if you compare the two.
This thing with Reggie Bush/LaMar Griffin being "greedy" and taking money from a marketing rep while he's still in school is nothing... even if it results in USC getting sanctions, etc, its only Sports!
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 29, 2007 5:57 AM — 75.75.86.11 — link — abuse?
you guys do all realize don't you that everything in Sunday's LA Times is from the point of view of Lloyd Lake or Michael Michaels.. the tapes are still alleged to be avail... I don't think anyone has heard them yet.. the way this thing was supposed to have worked is all from the convicts side of the story.. we have yet to hear the other side of the story
IrishJT said:
posted on January 29, 2007 9:02 AM — 71.207.226.16 — link — abuse?
Clipper Nation,
We certainly don't need you as some moral compass. The point about "guilty as charged" before there is an iota of proof was the point. No one, I don't believe, was trivializing sex crimes. Learn how to spell and shut the f*ck up. You add nothing to this blog.Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 29, 2007 11:50 AM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
TrojanHorse:
The "convicts" or "gangstas" just wanted their money back from Reggie Bush and still do. This is a first resort. If they don't get the $280 G's that Reggie ripped off - this isn't just gonna go away. Eventually, Reggie is gonna pay the piper. I can't imagine that anybody is gonna let Reggie walk with that kinda "bling". It isn't gonna happen. This dude is so naive that he doesn't even understand the trouble that he is in. He doesn't even understand that that was not the "convicts" money. It could be some form of "organized crime" money. He better really hope that it isn't "Russian money". Either way, it's gonna get paid back one way or another. This is all just the beginning. They haven't broken his legs yet - because that's where he gets his bread. But normally, that would have already happened. This dude is a real moron. I'll bet that it's his stepfather who takes the 1st real azz poundin'.
Tommie T
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 29, 2007 12:25 PM — 132.228.195.207 — link — abuse?
I'm not doubting you TT but my point is strictly about USC and the FB program and the version of the story that has come out.
Reggie and the morons he calls mom and stepdad did what they did and as you say, now its time to pay the piper.. so be it.. I don't care anymore about RB as he never seemed to care about SC. So if he gets whacked, he gets whacked.. I just want to point out that this stuff isn't as B&W as some try to make it
TampaGator said:
posted on January 29, 2007 2:02 PM — 152.163.100.196 — link — abuse?
Tommy Trojan:
If what you're saying is true (about mob $, etc.), why wouldn't they have made a move already? Why come out with it and go to press with information? Why go through legal avenues to get eviction? That just doesn't strike me as typical maffia MO (not that I pretend to be any kind of an expert in the area...). Seriously--the second they go public with it, they invite public scrutiny, perhaps even law enforcement scrutiny. That just doesn't sound very mob-like.
Gerald said:
posted on January 29, 2007 2:53 PM — 216.113.128.239 — link — abuse?
Tommie Trojan:
Your opinion seems to be one of USC's being able to win national titles with or without Bush. I agree with the 2004 national title, as Bush was a bit player on it as I recall. But are you sure about 2005? The media - and a lot of Trojan fans - are quick to claim that 2005 team as a "best ever" because of their wipeout of Oklahoma. However, the truth is that the 2005 USC team was a lot closer to 2007 Florida than 1995 Nebraska (whom no one got to within 10 points on all season long): their blowout in the national title game masked some close games and unimpressive performances during the regular season, not the least of which was needing a huge 2nd half comeback to beat 3 - 8 Stanford 31 - 28, but also included needing a second half comeback and a VERY QUESTIONABLE CALL to beat Virginia Tech (and Reggie Bush had a huge return and if I am correct a huge pass reception at critical times during that game), and also some tight games against UCLA (who had the ball in USC territory down by less than a TD with like 2 minutes left in the game), Cal (25 - 21 with Cal also having an excellent shot at winning at the end), and Oregon State as well. The Oklahoma blowout merely allowed Trojan fans and their many friends in the media to engage in some "great unstoppable clearly one of the best ever" revisionist history that the Florida Gators are not getting the benefit of. I say that USC would have been very hard pressed to beat Cal, UCLA, and ESPECIALLY Virginia Tech without Bush. What say you? I mean come on, the guy won the Heisman over a once - in - a generation season by Vince Young and was being called the next Gayle Sayers. So you would have won all those close games anyway WITHOUT the next Gayle Sayers? I am sorry, I ain't buying it. You are far more likely to get me to say that Florida would have gone 13 - 1 without Tim Tebow. Would Florida have? Of course not! And Tim Tebow was NOWHERE NEAR as good last season as Reggie Bush was his sophomore year, and as a guy who does not hold either player in high regard (apart from the fact that both are obviously immensely talented, a fact which I could not credibly deny even if I wanted to) and generally - but not always - roots against BOTH Florida AND Southern Cal, I feel uniquely qualified to make such an evaluation.
TrojanHorse said:
posted on January 29, 2007 3:12 PM — 132.228.195.206 — link — abuse?
"But are you sure about 2005? The media - and a lot of Trojan fans - are quick to claim that 2005 team as a "best ever" because of their wipeout of Oklahoma."
Gerald, that win over OU in the 2005 OB was the 2004 season
the 2005 team lost to UT in the 2006 RB
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 29, 2007 3:53 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
Gerald:
I'm gonna give you a clue: it's called the offensive line. Bush, White, Leinart and anybody else was following one of the great OL's in history. People like Duece Lutui, Winston Justice, Fred Matua, Ryan Kalil and Sam Baker don't ever end up on the same line. It never happens. Me or you could have won Heisman's behind those lines. After losing three of these guys this year - you could clearly see the dropoff in the running game. Fact is: Chauncey Washington, Emmanuel Moody, CJ Gable and Stephon Johnson all have as much, if not more, talent to run the ball than Bush and White had. It was the OL that took a hit this year. Bush and White were able to walk right in and run behind that line. Granted, they were not nearly as productive as when they were seniors.
BTW, it seems as if you have your years mixed up. In 2003, Bush and White were freshman, and USC was not too dominating although they got a share of the National Championship. In 2004, Matt Leinart was totally dominating and won the Heisman, and led USC to the 55-19 beatdown of Oklahoma. I don't remember much of Bush in that one. I remember Steve Smith catching three long TD's from Leinart and I think Jarrett got one also. We didn't need Bush at all against Oklahoma. And in 2005, when Bush won his Heisman, USC didn't win the NC anyway. I don't recall that Bush did too much against Texas. I remember that it was Lienart again - throwing for a ton of yards. No, I will state this again, USC did not need Reggie Bush to compete for a National Championship. Had they not lost to UCLA, they may have gotten one this year, sans Reggie Bush and little running game to speak off.
Also, the greatest USC team of all time is considered to be the 1972 version. In fact, it is regarded as just as good as 1995 Nebraska or 1971 Nebraska. These last few teams don't come close to having the talent that those teams had between 1970-1980. That is regarded as the greatest era of Trojan football. Look it up.Tommie T
Regan said:
posted on January 29, 2007 4:04 PM — 192.24.243.21 — link — abuse?
In a perfect world, the university shouldn't have to pay for what this kid and his agents did, especially now that he's in the pros, etc. I don't think the coaches or players deserve to get bit because of Bush; doesn't this make ya miss 'street justice', though? :)
Unfortunately for Southern California, even though it wasn't their 'fault', it was their 'responsibility'. Problems like these are why colleges have compliance departments to begin with.
Giving a free pass or slap on the wrist to anyone after the fact would send the wrong message to other schools, players, agents, etc, IMHO.
Forfeiture of games? Eh...this might be overkill, but whatever is on the rulebooks should be used, despite how absurd it might sound. I just don't like the idea of changing rules in mid-stream. Perhaps it could be looked at after all these things blow over if extreme measures were taken and things be put back fairly.
As far as the Hypesman Trophy goes, I would hate to see anything happen to tarnish Vince Young's reputation, so I think Bush should get to keep the trophy...
Although, we could just lock Bush in a room with a baseball bat-wielding TommieTrojan and call it resolved :)
VTBobb said:
posted on January 29, 2007 4:23 PM — 71.248.17.208 — link — abuse?
Tommie T,
I'm not disagreeing, and I'm not trying to imply that the USC coaches knew anything about what was going on. I'm just saying they should have, and should have tried to put an end to it. I will say the same thing if anything like that is going on at VT (which I guess it could be). Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't mean it's right.I'm usually pretty conservative about this kind of thing, but I really believe providing a minthly stipend to players during season particularly, could help minimize some of the financial temptations. I think about $1000/month would be what you caould make at a decent part time job during college. I don't think you would want to make it too much larger; that could put a financial strain on smaller programs.
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 29, 2007 4:49 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
Regan:
I'm sure that the people that he ripped the money off from have something planned for Reggie Bush. Although, I doubt if anything is gonna knock a lick of sense in to that dudes thick skull.
On another note: neither Ohio State (behind the Maurice Clarrett fiasco's) or Oklahoma (behind Brett Romar's illegal payments) were punished very significantly. And, they should not have been. These players were all scum. Look at it. They were all Top players at their positions coming out of high school. All three were totally dirty ball players. Who's next? Who are the Top Rated players? How bout JD Booty? He was a #1 player. How bout Percy Harvin? He was a #1 player. This year I guess it's Jimmy Claussen. Are there any others? Are they all takin' bling? How bout that Williams kid at Penn State? Is he gettin' money? I find it strange that the very elite players are getting caught "rollin' dirty". Is that why they all leave after their junior years? Is it to pay back what they took? That might be a clear signal possibly. Especially with kids who are not gonna get drafted very high. Otherwise, it makes no sense at all.Tommie T
hokie4life said:
posted on January 29, 2007 5:34 PM — 64.128.214.5 — link — abuse?
Any and all kids taking money and gifts under the table should be penalized. At whatever school doing whatever sport. What an immoral and greedy society we have become!!! There kids in college who happen to accell at their sport. Thats' what the pros are for. These telanted kids should wait till they get to the pros before harvesting their millions. There should be a zero tolerance view on this. Any kid or his or her family caught should mean loss of collegiate illagability period. Rip their scholarship and make them earn thir education. Yeah I said give them a chance to stay in school and get their education the hard way. What a F'd up country we live in today!
Tommie Trojan said:
posted on January 29, 2007 5:52 PM — 64.32.153.19 — link — abuse?
VTBobb:
I think they already get $900 a month. But that doesn't get you a cup of coffee in the LA Metropolitan area. I think of it all like I think of taxes. Some areas of the country have a way higher cost of living index - but the taxes that they pay remains as high as somebody living out in the backwoods of Alaska. I agree with these kids getting some more cheese. I don't know what that would be. I think it ought to come out of some of the dough that these Universities are making though. A kid can't work, do his school work and participate in all team activities. I know that it has been done in the past. But, never has inflation been so outrageously high either. Personally, I'm getting real close to transferring out to Wichita and getting the hell out of California. It is getting more and more ridiculous every single minute to try and stay ahead here. I just don't know what I'm gonna do if I have to sit there and watch either the Jayhawks or Wildcats play football each Saturday. They just better have a "USC package" that I can pick up. If they got that - I'm gone!
Tommie T
fsu.fan said:
posted on January 29, 2007 6:20 PM — 71.14.108.232 — link — abuse?
The idea of football players getting paid is insane. Yes, they have a full plate and remain busy for ONE semester. Seriously, if you pay football players than what about basketball players? Golf team? Track team? Water polo? Baseball? Is the school going to pay every student athlete? I think not but they all have just as much on their plate. They are already getting paid.
A $30,000 tuition at 100% discount, now thats getting PAID.
Seriously, they can take any courses they want - for FREE. Yes they are busy. So is a regular student working a full time job while taking a full time class load but having to actually pay tui
Barry Manilow said:
posted on January 25, 2007 10:57 AM — 199.43.32.86 — link — abuse?Just like most instances when this type of stuff happens, the school will lose nothing. The NC, Pac 10 title and the victories will stand. It will amount to little more than a black eye.
And to be honest, unless the money that Bush was receiving came from a USC coach or booster connected to the program than it should amount to nothing. It's not their fault that scumbag agents and agencies continue to prey on poor black athletes and their families.